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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle

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you know there's explanation for

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everything that occurred in the

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Rendlesham forest incident billions at

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all it was completely silent it comes

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right over our heads it's also really

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standing me the Clery he turned over to

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my father held his hand and he looked in

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welcome to podcast UFO for our live show

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we're live every Wednesday at 8 p.m.

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Eastern Standard Time on the dark matter

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radio network please remember to visit

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the website podcast UFO calm for past

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episodes blogs and forums during the

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show feel free to participate live in

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our chat room and don't forget to like

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us on our very active Facebook page

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hello and welcome to the show I'm Martin

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Willis your host and we have a humdinger

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for you tonight though that being said

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we didn't have enough time for UFO news

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but there's quite a lot of going on

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right now and our first two guests will

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actually be talking about a headliner so

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if you want to check out what else is

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going on in the UFO news you can listen

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to Alejandro Rojas and my banter over at

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open minds TV tonight's guests we start

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out with Marc Rutger who has been for

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several years the scientific director of

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the center of UFO studies his interest

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in UFO research is a wide ranging

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including vehicle interference cases

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which i think is interesting physical

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trace cases and abductions and of course

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we have repeat guests leslie kane and we

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know her as a journalist who has been

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investigating and reporting on UFOs in

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the mainstream for 15 years an author of

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The New York Times bestseller UFOs

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generals pilots and government officials

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go on the record

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they'll be on for the first 40 minutes

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and if you're listening live we are

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taking calls write this number down 603

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nine six seven four oh three oh and our

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guests for the remainder of the show is

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the one and only Michael Shermer dark

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Michael Shermer is a founding publisher

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of skeptic magazine a monthly columnist

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for a Scientific American and a regular

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contributor to time.com and really

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looking forward to talking to him before

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we get started I wanted to thank

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everyone for all the support for the

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show again I thank you very much for

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that you know the first hour is always

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free on podcast UFO calm the poll show

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is by subscription and all that

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information is on our website and it's

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under the support tab if you cannot

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support the show for a dollar amount

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tomorrow we still appreciate each and

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every listener remember you can always

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listen to the whole show for free every

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Wednesday like right now at 8 to 10 p.m.

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and you can jump in the chat room at

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podcast UFO calm and posed guest for

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questions or interact with other people

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listening and you could mention before

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you can call in at 6:03 9 6 7 403 o you

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can also Skype in and that's at marty

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willis for a user name on skype that's

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ma RT y wi ll is and i don't like being

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called marty so I don't know why I did

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that but anyway alright it's time to

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bring on our guests mark Rutger and

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Leslie Kane how are you both doing yeah

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welcome to the show and you have some

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Leslie you have some news that's kind of

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snowballing and that's where you're here

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to talk about it so why don't you talk

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about your Huffington Post article and

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then we'll get right into UFO Datanet

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okay well I did release this piece last

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week and it's about an organization a

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new organization called UFO data which

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mark has sort of been Mark and one of

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the person have been kind of running and

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putting together for the last two years

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and finally this this group is ready to

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launch and so last week marked the

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actual launch of this operation and my

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piece talked about that and sort of put

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it in the context of the whole SETI

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search for extraterrestrial intelligence

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and weep we're thinking about this is

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sort of a very local SETI a way of

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looking for

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or hardware or possible items that could

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reflect some kind of et presence looking

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close to the planet instead of just

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looking out to nearby galaxies so that's

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sort of what's exciting about this group

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and Mark can talk more about the the

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specifics of it but I think it's really

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exciting in the context of all the

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discoveries that we're making about

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exoplanets and the more we learn about

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the possibility of life existing in

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other planets the more it seems relevant

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to me and rational to not just look far

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away but we can also look close by for

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for any kind of potential evidence yes

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you know the thing that I'm sure I'm

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gonna be speaking to about later with

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the michael is you know the evidence

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it's always it's a you know trying to do

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science on ufos it's like a non

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repeatable or it's always you know hard

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to nail down so this will at least the

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idea here is to gather some type of

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evidence that of reoccurring and mark

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can you get into the details of these

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units and and how they will be set up

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and getting and what type of data will

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they be gathering well if I'm if I'm a

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martin let me let me just start with a

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little background about the history of

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studying ufos in the field because while

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witness reports are important and we've

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learned things from them nothing beats

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actually measuring what you're studying

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in real time people have known that for

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years and there have been groups that

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have gone out into the field that has

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stalin in norway at yakima in washington

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state in the US and a few other places

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where they UFO phenomena let's say

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occurred repeatedly in me it was

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worthwhile to put something like the

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station we're going to be developing in

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that spot in fact hessed allen still has

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instruments there you know as we speak

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those efforts were all valiant and they

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and they did record some UFOs but they

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haven't moved us forward too far and so

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I and Alex went at Ohio State and

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several other people have been talking

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for a few years about the the need to

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get hard reliable real-time data on the

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whole phenomena and and and just see

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what it shows us whatever that is and so

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as Leslie said we've been talking about

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it actually longer than than two years

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but two years has been the true effort

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to get things organized and including a

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non-profit and so forth and you know we

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have a basic design for a station but

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you know I and we'll talk about that but

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we are very early in the process still

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attracting high-quality volunteers which

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has been happening actually since the

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launch and we know we have a long way to

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go and that the details of the stations

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are still to be worked out even though

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it's easy to think about what we'd like

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to measure about the phenomena so but

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that that gives the listeners I think a

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good set you know a good sense of the

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background of the whole effort and and

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specifically this particular UFO data

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project now I had guests on awhile back

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Mark Dantonio and Doug Trumbull and

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they're working well they have been

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working for quite some time on a very

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similar type of idea I would be

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wonderful if if there could be some type

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of collaboration I just wondered if they

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have you been reaching out or has anyone

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reached out to anyone regarding this

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well I've been actually I've known Doug

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Trumbull for many years and I've been to

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his compound I've seen the project that

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he has and it's really excellent I think

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one of the differences is is that he has

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he has his gear in a Humvee and it's

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basically like the equivalent of one

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station that's on wheels and I'm not

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even sure I don't know to what extent

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the the technology that he has is as

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diverse as what we hope to have but he

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does have this station and he has been

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waiting to complete it so it actually

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hasn't really been used yet but we've

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had some communication with him and

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hopefully you know we all have the same

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goal so hopefully we're going to

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collaborate with him and many other

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people out there that are

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interested in this right I had a

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conversation with Mark Dantonio this

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last weekend and he basically said the

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same thing you know it's for everybody

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so he'd be willing to you know

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collaborate any type of way and also

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they have gone past this Humvee and

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they're what they're doing now is

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something very similar it's separate

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little units that are going to be put

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out in like hot spots and different

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areas around the country and wirelessly

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controlled and data gathered so sounds

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like sounds like almost a fit and we

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could talk about that you know off air

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but so what are your hopes to get this

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thing rolling there's some possible

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crowdsourcing

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yes we're thinking of the project now is

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having at least two phases initially you

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know a year ago we thought the first

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phase would be classic crowdfunding with

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Kickstarter or IndieGoGo errs or the

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equivalent then we realized that was

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better to do this which is have a phase

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one where we have a website launch the

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project do interviews like this and seek

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out people who with great skills because

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even though we have some good people on

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the project in fact we have we have

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people like Massimo Tia Durrani from

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Italy or Lindstrand from hostile in

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Norway they all are very busy with

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projects that have been ongoing and they

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have you know they're going to support

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us with technical knowledge and all of

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that but we need people who have a

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little more time on their hands and a

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broader range of skills in various areas

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particularly software programming and so

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that actually is working out very well

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so we're going to be getting that talent

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amassed and working with them in phase

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one and also of course raising some

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money so we can start to buy some

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equipment and begin to work on a

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prototype now we have a basic idea of a

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station design with a magnetometer with

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probably six or eight all-sky cameras

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with spectrographs and and so forth but

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it hasn't been fleshed out because you

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know we just didn't have the team put

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together with the right resources to do

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that so we've constant

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on getting the structure of an

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organization that can use the resources

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I think they're going to come our way to

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create the station in phase one if we do

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that we have a prototype we then test it

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in every possible way including first in

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them in the laboratory equivalent and

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that out in the field when that's

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successful and of course it will be

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because we're not trying to reinvent the

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wheel there it's just that it's a effort

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to do all of this but we're not

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developing new computer chips or

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something then we go to Phase two we

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have a proof-of-concept that we think

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will be attractive and convince the

272
00:11:46,430 --> 00:11:44,140
public that we can do this and so

273
00:11:48,990 --> 00:11:46,440
that'll be the true crowdfunding phase

274
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:49,000
with the amount of money that we need to

275
00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:50,560
raise then to be determined of course by

276
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:53,650
what happens at phase one and then if we

277
00:11:59,280 --> 00:11:56,170
are successful at raising sufficient

278
00:12:01,010 --> 00:11:59,290
funds we build more stations and we

279
00:12:05,550 --> 00:12:01,020
start putting them out in the field and

280
00:12:07,290 --> 00:12:05,560
start hopefully doing science now I know

281
00:12:10,170 --> 00:12:07,300
they say you know science is

282
00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:10,180
observational or you hear I have heard

283
00:12:15,090 --> 00:12:11,950
that term I don't know if that's if

284
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:15,100
that's completely true or not but you

285
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:17,920
will have someone like Michael when he

286
00:12:23,790 --> 00:12:19,450
comes on he's going to say you know I

287
00:12:26,250 --> 00:12:23,800
want a I want a piece of a UFO and just

288
00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:26,260
wonder what what you how you address

289
00:12:31,410 --> 00:12:28,510
that type of comment what would you say

290
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:31,420
to someone that says that well when

291
00:12:36,390 --> 00:12:33,130
people have talked about wanting a piece

292
00:12:40,410 --> 00:12:36,400
of a UFO it's been in the context of the

293
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:40,420
claim that UFO sightings are at least

294
00:12:45,630 --> 00:12:42,090
some of them are caused by

295
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:45,640
extraterrestrials and you know at its

296
00:12:53,490 --> 00:12:50,560
core if you were trying to prove that I

297
00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:53,500
pathes having a quote-unquote piece of a

298
00:13:02,730 --> 00:12:58,330
UFO would be ideal but it really is true

299
00:13:04,170 --> 00:13:02,740
that we are trying to understand the UFO

300
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:04,180
phenomena that's the best way to put it

301
00:13:10,430 --> 00:13:06,970
by gathering the kind of data that would

302
00:13:12,900 --> 00:13:10,440
help you understand it and that includes

303
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:12,910
possibly parts of the phenomena that are

304
00:13:16,020 --> 00:13:14,530
not extraterrestrial and then of course

305
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:16,030
my parts of

306
00:13:23,220 --> 00:13:19,920
that might be now do you need to have a

307
00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:23,230
piece of something to show that it is

308
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:25,780
using strange physics or something

309
00:13:30,090 --> 00:13:27,760
unusual in the atmosphere and the answer

310
00:13:32,250 --> 00:13:30,100
of course is obviously not the

311
00:13:34,110 --> 00:13:32,260
measurements that you make will be

312
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:34,120
enough to say that that whatever was

313
00:13:40,070 --> 00:13:36,490
observed is interesting and unusual and

314
00:13:43,020 --> 00:13:40,080
not a plane not a satellite not whatever

315
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:43,030
it's it's extremely unlikely that

316
00:13:46,050 --> 00:13:44,560
whatever we picked up would say well

317
00:13:48,630 --> 00:13:46,060
that's an alien spacecraft and you know

318
00:13:51,450 --> 00:13:48,640
there's here's its ID number but but

319
00:13:54,570 --> 00:13:51,460
what we are hoping to do is get the data

320
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:54,580
that will let us move forward and find

321
00:13:59,460 --> 00:13:56,290
out whether in fact there's enough

322
00:14:01,950 --> 00:13:59,470
intriguing here to draw the attention of

323
00:14:05,210 --> 00:14:01,960
the broader scientific community and it

324
00:14:08,610 --> 00:14:05,220
seems to me that anybody who is

325
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:08,620
committed to scientific inquiry would be

326
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:11,530
willing to to be cite to say that that

327
00:14:17,730 --> 00:14:15,370
type of an effort is justified right one

328
00:14:20,670 --> 00:14:17,740
of the things you have actually heard

329
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:20,680
from a scientist when I talked to him

330
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:23,290
about the UFO problem or whatever you

331
00:14:30,390 --> 00:14:26,110
want to call it is that it

332
00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:30,400
they often someone involved in science

333
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:32,710
wants to see something that's solvable

334
00:14:36,390 --> 00:14:34,720
within a certain amount of time or they

335
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:36,400
they just don't want to invest in

336
00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:38,290
something unless they know it can be

337
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:41,230
solved fairly quickly and that goes for

338
00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:45,130
funding and you know raising funds and

339
00:14:52,140 --> 00:14:48,400
all that you know we've been looking at

340
00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:52,150
this for a long time and you know we

341
00:14:58,110 --> 00:14:53,950
don't really seem all that much closer

342
00:15:00,090 --> 00:14:58,120
what we do seem closer on is the fact

343
00:15:03,450 --> 00:15:00,100
that you know we had Kepler out there

344
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:03,460
and Kepler is seeing you know earth-like

345
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:05,530
planets everything seems like it's

346
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:07,360
heading in the direction that it's

347
00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:09,250
possible that there's extraterrestrial

348
00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:11,740
life and I think we're at a point where

349
00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:14,860
it's going if it is solved it's going to

350
00:15:21,810 --> 00:15:17,140
be much more acceptable than it would

351
00:15:23,250 --> 00:15:21,820
have been 20 years ago yeah yeah Leslie

352
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:23,260
do you want to say anything

353
00:15:26,580 --> 00:15:24,850
Martin you mean if it's soft you mean

354
00:15:29,850 --> 00:15:26,590
the what do you mean by if it's off you

355
00:15:32,490 --> 00:15:29,860
mean the UFO question is all right

356
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:32,500
we actually get data on it or we know we

357
00:15:37,259 --> 00:15:34,930
determine what it is or depends what you

358
00:15:40,410 --> 00:15:37,269
mean by salt yeah that's true you know

359
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,420
getting data on it compared to salt is

360
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:42,160
absolutely two different things you're

361
00:15:46,199 --> 00:15:44,290
right you know the old landing on the

362
00:15:50,759 --> 00:15:46,209
White House lawn and all that stuff as

363
00:15:53,370 --> 00:15:50,769
they all say but I also wonder how much

364
00:15:55,710 --> 00:15:53,380
evidence or data would you possibly need

365
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:55,720
that would convince you know the

366
00:16:00,210 --> 00:15:58,480
majority of the world that there is yeah

367
00:16:02,970 --> 00:16:00,220
I mean I think what Mark just said about

368
00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:02,980
you know the the reasoning behind what

369
00:16:07,259 --> 00:16:05,050
we're doing that it's not we're not out

370
00:16:08,819 --> 00:16:07,269
to prove something to prove some

371
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:08,829
hypothesis we already have that there

372
00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:10,810
are extraterrestrial but if we can

373
00:16:15,329 --> 00:16:12,940
acquire enough data in different

374
00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:15,339
locations let's say let's say a lot of

375
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:17,649
the data points to something similar and

376
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:21,040
they're very peculiar and unusual things

377
00:16:24,630 --> 00:16:22,570
that we're picking up on because we have

378
00:16:26,370 --> 00:16:24,640
enough data to know a lot about them I

379
00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:26,380
mean I'm not a scientist so I'm talking

380
00:16:31,470 --> 00:16:28,750
not quite as articulately about it as

381
00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:31,480
mark can but the point is if you have

382
00:16:35,819 --> 00:16:33,279
repeatable data and it's showing

383
00:16:38,970 --> 00:16:35,829
something up there that's a true anomaly

384
00:16:41,699 --> 00:16:38,980
because it can't be explained hopefully

385
00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:41,709
then the broader scientific community

386
00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:43,360
will become interested in it and once

387
00:16:49,410 --> 00:16:46,390
there becomes an interest you know in a

388
00:16:52,350 --> 00:16:49,420
broad level and it becomes possibly part

389
00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:52,360
of the whole vigor scientific picture in

390
00:16:57,210 --> 00:16:54,430
terms of the effort that's being made to

391
00:16:59,310 --> 00:16:57,220
look for extraterrestrial intelligence

392
00:17:00,600 --> 00:16:59,320
or even not let's just say scientists

393
00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:00,610
physicists who are interested in finding

394
00:17:05,549 --> 00:17:03,190
out what the hell this stuff is then

395
00:17:08,460 --> 00:17:05,559
maybe over time but through a concerted

396
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:08,470
effort in which big resources and lots

397
00:17:12,210 --> 00:17:10,329
of brainpower are put into trying to

398
00:17:14,819 --> 00:17:12,220
solve the mystery of what this data is

399
00:17:17,309 --> 00:17:14,829
showing maybe at that point we will be

400
00:17:18,809 --> 00:17:17,319
able to actually find out if there is a

401
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,819
way to discover what these things

402
00:17:23,069 --> 00:17:20,799
actually are I think that's way down the

403
00:17:24,990 --> 00:17:23,079
road but if we can if we can do what

404
00:17:27,329 --> 00:17:25,000
mark we're hoping to do here which is

405
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:27,339
just collect enough data that's actually

406
00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:30,010
useable by the scientific community way

407
00:17:34,530 --> 00:17:31,840
more than you know as he said we've just

408
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:34,540
had a lot of reports in the past and a

409
00:17:38,909 --> 00:17:36,730
lot of maybe some photographs some radar

410
00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:38,919
tracings but this is taking it to a

411
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:40,360
different level and I think you just

412
00:17:45,190 --> 00:17:42,410
have to take it one step at a time but

413
00:17:47,230 --> 00:17:45,200
it has the potential in the future if it

414
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:47,240
if it all goes the way we would like and

415
00:17:50,590 --> 00:17:49,130
it interests the scientific community

416
00:17:53,770 --> 00:17:50,600
that maybe we will actually get an

417
00:17:56,170 --> 00:17:53,780
answer to what this mystery is right I

418
00:17:59,380 --> 00:17:56,180
totally understand you're more along the

419
00:18:02,620 --> 00:17:59,390
lines of cultivating a science curiosity

420
00:18:04,510 --> 00:18:02,630
too I mean absolutely I mean I'm sort of

421
00:18:06,810 --> 00:18:04,520
baffled by you know and I'm sure that

422
00:18:08,860 --> 00:18:06,820
Michael and other people you know and

423
00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:08,870
reasonably enough I think will argue

424
00:18:12,730 --> 00:18:10,340
that there just isn't enough evidence

425
00:18:14,110 --> 00:18:12,740
for science to work with and that may be

426
00:18:15,790 --> 00:18:14,120
true I don't think I think there's

427
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:15,800
enough evidence to establish that we

428
00:18:19,630 --> 00:18:18,050
have some kind of a mystery here and

429
00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:19,640
something that I would think would

430
00:18:24,370 --> 00:18:21,800
stimulate people's curiosity a lot more

431
00:18:26,260 --> 00:18:24,380
than it does but there's a taboo around

432
00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:26,270
the UFO subject and that's part of the

433
00:18:31,060 --> 00:18:28,670
problem it's not it's not you know

434
00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:31,070
considered people don't want to take it

435
00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:32,630
seriously because there's a risks

436
00:18:36,850 --> 00:18:33,950
involved in all kinds of other issues

437
00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:36,860
involved so that's another point of this

438
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:38,990
project we might be able to help get

439
00:18:43,630 --> 00:18:41,210
beyond that taboo so that people feel

440
00:18:45,010 --> 00:18:43,640
safe and comfortable taking this a

441
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:45,020
little more seriously than they have in

442
00:18:48,460 --> 00:18:46,090
the past

443
00:18:50,770 --> 00:18:48,470
that's exactly right we you know we have

444
00:18:54,940 --> 00:18:50,780
I think was it for silent advisors right

445
00:18:56,890 --> 00:18:54,950
now on the project who are most of them

446
00:18:58,960 --> 00:18:56,900
are faculty members at universities who

447
00:19:01,750 --> 00:18:58,970
are very enthusiastic about the project

448
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:01,760
but will not let their name be used for

449
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:03,530
the reasons that Leslie just stated I

450
00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:06,710
mean that's just a shame you know that

451
00:19:13,890 --> 00:19:09,350
that's the case and that they can't

452
00:19:16,690 --> 00:19:13,900
openly with us study this phenomena

453
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:16,700
which you know to find out whatever it

454
00:19:22,510 --> 00:19:19,730
is that we'll find out because as you

455
00:19:25,030 --> 00:19:22,520
know we're not here despite our interest

456
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:25,040
like the SETI folks in extraterrestrial

457
00:19:29,890 --> 00:19:27,650
intelligence we're willing to let the

458
00:19:31,930 --> 00:19:29,900
chips fall where they may and whatever

459
00:19:35,770 --> 00:19:31,940
data we find you know we're going to

460
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:35,780
publish it and let everybody know what

461
00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:38,960
it is and you will see what we find now

462
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:45,440
project has Dolan in Norway that as some

463
00:19:51,550 --> 00:19:48,710
of what you're doing sort of on the

464
00:19:53,530 --> 00:19:51,560
wings of that I heard you mention it a

465
00:19:56,620 --> 00:19:53,540
minute ago yes it's in the same vein as

466
00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:56,630
Stalin probably many of you

467
00:20:03,870 --> 00:19:58,400
dunno of has talent but not everybody

468
00:20:06,130 --> 00:20:03,880
does so briefly in the late 1970s the

469
00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:06,140
people who lived in a fairly isolated

470
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:09,710
value of F Valley in south-central

471
00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:11,090
Norway

472
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:13,670
saw strange lights and other phenomena

473
00:20:19,630 --> 00:20:17,690
and there were often enough that the

474
00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:19,640
Norwegian UFO investigators said you

475
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:21,260
know we can do something here we can

476
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:23,450
actually go there and have an expedition

477
00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:25,850
and try to photograph and and see it

478
00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:27,590
ourselves not just interview the the

479
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:29,750
witnesses and they did that in the early

480
00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:32,480
1980s dr. Hynek from our group went

481
00:20:35,410 --> 00:20:33,860
there and had a famous incident where

482
00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:35,420
they got their car broke down in the

483
00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:36,950
snow in the middle of the winter we

484
00:20:44,410 --> 00:20:41,360
always laughed about and the they were

485
00:20:47,410 --> 00:20:44,420
able to take indeed photos and make

486
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:47,420
measurements about it and after there

487
00:20:52,450 --> 00:20:50,240
was a gap in the phenomenon in the 80s

488
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:52,460
late 80s and in the early 90s it

489
00:20:56,860 --> 00:20:55,010
reappeared they got more funding they've

490
00:20:59,620 --> 00:20:56,870
worked with a show business and

491
00:21:02,640 --> 00:20:59,630
physicist from Italy recently and also a

492
00:21:06,070 --> 00:21:02,650
group from France an early strand

493
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:06,080
Norwegian has led this effort there is a

494
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:09,170
a something they call the blue box there

495
00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:11,810
which has a camera recording images

496
00:21:19,210 --> 00:21:14,750
continuously and a few other devices and

497
00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:19,220
they have gotten a spectra or - a

498
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:22,940
spectrum or - of a UFO and they have

499
00:21:29,140 --> 00:21:26,480
also made some measurements about 9

500
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:29,150
attic fields that you know fluctuated in

501
00:21:33,730 --> 00:21:31,010
the presence of actual visual sighting

502
00:21:36,490 --> 00:21:33,740
so several papers have been published by

503
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:36,500
a number of people including Massimo

504
00:21:44,550 --> 00:21:40,370
from our own project so what is seen

505
00:21:48,820 --> 00:21:44,560
there appears to be some type of odd

506
00:21:53,230 --> 00:21:48,830
plasma phenomena not extraterrestrial

507
00:21:54,550 --> 00:21:53,240
but still very mysterious you know could

508
00:21:59,080 --> 00:21:54,560
lead to some very interesting new

509
00:22:00,970 --> 00:21:59,090
physics and the scientific humidity is

510
00:22:02,740 --> 00:22:00,980
pretty much kind of ho-hum about it

511
00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:02,750
people have been able to publish in a

512
00:22:07,660 --> 00:22:06,230
few places but it's treated as kind of

513
00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:07,670
an I think just this little thing

514
00:22:09,789 --> 00:22:08,990
sitting off in a corner a little bit

515
00:22:12,249 --> 00:22:09,799
like earth light

516
00:22:14,830 --> 00:22:12,259
earthquake lights used to be until

517
00:22:16,930 --> 00:22:14,840
finally they were established as a true

518
00:22:18,759 --> 00:22:16,940
phenomena that is not completely

519
00:22:21,850 --> 00:22:18,769
understood yet but does occur during

520
00:22:23,259 --> 00:22:21,860
earthquakes so so anyway so that's my

521
00:22:24,789 --> 00:22:23,269
quick I guess that wasn't too quick

522
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:24,799
summary of Hess Talent

523
00:22:28,989 --> 00:22:27,679
yes you know it that that whole thing

524
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:28,999
kind of reminds me also of a Brown

525
00:22:31,930 --> 00:22:30,110
Mountain I don't know if you've ever

526
00:22:34,570 --> 00:22:31,940
heard of that there's a lot of a rash of

527
00:22:37,090 --> 00:22:34,580
sightings there constantly lights in the

528
00:22:39,639 --> 00:22:37,100
sky but not always there's sometimes

529
00:22:42,970 --> 00:22:39,649
more than that involved and you know

530
00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:42,980
there's a high concentration of copper

531
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:45,289
in those mountains and you never know it

532
00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:47,450
could be just some type of natural

533
00:22:52,299 --> 00:22:49,190
phenomenon like you just mentioned right

534
00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:52,309
now on the other hand in the early 1970s

535
00:22:57,220 --> 00:22:55,340
in southeast Missouri a professor of

536
00:23:00,729 --> 00:22:57,230
physics and astronomy named Harley

537
00:23:03,310 --> 00:23:00,739
Rutledge and his students went out into

538
00:23:05,649 --> 00:23:03,320
the field without stations like we want

539
00:23:07,210 --> 00:23:05,659
to build but with cameras and so forth

540
00:23:09,369 --> 00:23:07,220
that they just carry with them you know

541
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:09,379
each night and they were able to

542
00:23:15,220 --> 00:23:12,559
photograph and measure some details

543
00:23:18,159 --> 00:23:15,230
about the anomalous light phenomena that

544
00:23:21,340 --> 00:23:18,169
was occurring there because it also was

545
00:23:24,849 --> 00:23:21,350
occurring very regularly in in this

546
00:23:26,590 --> 00:23:24,859
period in 1973 particularly there was a

547
00:23:29,139 --> 00:23:26,600
large flap of UFO sightings in the

548
00:23:31,299 --> 00:23:29,149
United States and it was kind of a part

549
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:31,309
of that not exactly he wrote a book

550
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:34,720
about it called project identification

551
00:23:40,029 --> 00:23:37,369
absolutely they saw and measured

552
00:23:42,609 --> 00:23:40,039
something the the reason I bring it up

553
00:23:44,049 --> 00:23:42,619
is not that it it it shows again that

554
00:23:46,690 --> 00:23:44,059
it's possible to go out in the field and

555
00:23:48,220 --> 00:23:46,700
do this and they didn't have any money

556
00:23:50,109 --> 00:23:48,230
and funds and they did and they did a

557
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:50,119
great job for what they what they had at

558
00:23:57,549 --> 00:23:54,320
the time but it they thought that at

559
00:24:01,629 --> 00:23:57,559
times the phenomena seemed to be

560
00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:01,639
reacting to them you know I wasn't there

561
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:04,609
I'm on all I can do is report what what

562
00:24:09,580 --> 00:24:07,850
Rutledge and his students said but you

563
00:24:12,039 --> 00:24:09,590
know that would be an example of you

564
00:24:15,099 --> 00:24:12,049
know was there some intelligence behind

565
00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:15,109
it that was aware of the fact that it

566
00:24:20,379 --> 00:24:18,049
was being observed and then reacted and

567
00:24:22,570 --> 00:24:20,389
on some basis of that that gets back to

568
00:24:23,470 --> 00:24:22,580
this idea of local SETI if I can just

569
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:23,480
add one more thing

570
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:27,530
is that it's not crazy to look for

571
00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:29,510
evidence of extraterrestrial life in the

572
00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:31,910
solar system in fact quote unquote

573
00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:34,820
you know the mainstream scientists have

574
00:24:38,530 --> 00:24:36,830
written papers about that and talked

575
00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:38,540
about it usually in the context of

576
00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:40,910
extraterrestrial probes but Paul Davies

577
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:44,720
is a very well-respected a scientist has

578
00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:46,490
talked about looking on a moon for

579
00:24:51,970 --> 00:24:48,860
extraterrestrial artifacts so the moon's

580
00:24:53,980 --> 00:24:51,980
fairly close to Earth I've heard and we

581
00:24:57,250 --> 00:24:53,990
don't see any reason why we can't just

582
00:24:58,690 --> 00:24:57,260
take that extra step and you know and

583
00:25:04,300 --> 00:24:58,700
look right here in the Earth's

584
00:25:07,210 --> 00:25:04,310
atmosphere for things that's right I you

585
00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:07,220
know I I'm sure you at least you know

586
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:10,640
Leslie I had Seth Shostak on you know

587
00:25:18,010 --> 00:25:14,090
talking about SETI and the radio signals

588
00:25:21,010 --> 00:25:18,020
and all that and he was he's totally

589
00:25:23,890 --> 00:25:21,020
well at least his strong opinion is that

590
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:23,900
we never have you know been visited any

591
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:27,110
time in the past and you know I'm sure

592
00:25:30,460 --> 00:25:28,400
that's probably what we'll be talking

593
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:30,470
about a little bit later tonight with

594
00:25:37,030 --> 00:25:34,850
Michael but myself you know I don't ever

595
00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:37,040
claim that I have the answer for what it

596
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:39,740
is but I know that something is showing

597
00:25:47,380 --> 00:25:43,130
up here but I don't want to point the

598
00:25:49,660 --> 00:25:47,390
finger at extraterrestrial just yet yeah

599
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:49,670
well I mean I think I think it's

600
00:25:54,460 --> 00:25:51,170
important to maintain what we call the

601
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:54,470
agnostic position and I much I'm an

602
00:25:58,810 --> 00:25:57,440
adherent of that I think we have to

603
00:26:02,410 --> 00:25:58,820
acknowledge that there are some

604
00:26:03,850 --> 00:26:02,420
interesting UFO cases and what I tried

605
00:26:06,550 --> 00:26:03,860
to do in my book was just bring together

606
00:26:09,610 --> 00:26:06,560
the absolute best most well-documented

607
00:26:12,250 --> 00:26:09,620
cases from the most official sources and

608
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:12,260
I think there are enough of those that

609
00:26:17,020 --> 00:26:14,570
it's very hard to just explain all of

610
00:26:18,910 --> 00:26:17,030
them away it doesn't mean that we're

611
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:18,920
being visited by extraterrestrials

612
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:21,710
though I mean my understanding of Seth

613
00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:23,810
Shaw stacks major objection is the fact

614
00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:25,700
that there just isn't enough evidence of

615
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:28,340
substance to allow there to be the kind

616
00:26:32,650 --> 00:26:30,770
of study that science needs to be able

617
00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:32,660
to make on something and I kind of

618
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:36,500
respect that but to say that

619
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:39,410
you know that you can just dismiss every

620
00:26:43,570 --> 00:26:41,120
single report in every single

621
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:43,580
well-documented case and just explain it

622
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:44,480
in some way

623
00:26:49,570 --> 00:26:46,970
I don't think holds water I think we

624
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:49,580
have a mystery here we have evidence and

625
00:26:54,010 --> 00:26:52,490
we have a real phenomenon and the

626
00:26:57,310 --> 00:26:54,020
question is to try to learn more about

627
00:26:58,900 --> 00:26:57,320
it and that's why we need to to have a

628
00:27:01,660 --> 00:26:58,910
project like this when we're not getting

629
00:27:02,890 --> 00:27:01,670
government support we can't get you know

630
00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:02,900
the scientists who are interested in

631
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:04,790
this cannot get grants to support it

632
00:27:08,830 --> 00:27:06,530
because of the taboo and because our own

633
00:27:10,450 --> 00:27:08,840
government doesn't isn't willing to

634
00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:10,460
acknowledge that there's even anything

635
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:12,680
of worth studying here which is

636
00:27:17,860 --> 00:27:15,290
basically positioned that Seth and other

637
00:27:19,450 --> 00:27:17,870
scientists take so we've just decided

638
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:19,460
we're going to try to find get some data

639
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:21,290
I mean we have no other choice

640
00:27:26,110 --> 00:27:24,050
and if we want to learn more about what

641
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:26,120
this thing is we've got to try to get

642
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:28,640
more information on it now you mentioned

643
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:30,710
someone I believe you said someone in

644
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:34,130
Italy also I saw our good friend Jose

645
00:27:44,290 --> 00:27:38,290
Lai is also involved with this project

646
00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:44,300
and will this be will we be getting you

647
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:47,360
know participants on UFO data from

648
00:27:51,730 --> 00:27:49,760
different countries do you believe no

649
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:51,740
absolutely you know we have team members

650
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:53,810
as you just said from from from several

651
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:55,730
countries we've had people volunteering

652
00:28:02,050 --> 00:27:58,480
already from more than several countries

653
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:02,060
and we would expect that the station's

654
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:04,370
eventually would be placed not just in

655
00:28:09,610 --> 00:28:07,310
the US but in other places that

656
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:09,620
logistics maybe get a little complicated

657
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:12,530
of course but but absolutely the UFO

658
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:14,690
phenomenon is worldwide the study should

659
00:28:22,450 --> 00:28:19,010
be worldwide that's right and I really

660
00:28:24,610 --> 00:28:22,460
respect you know Chile's position on

661
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:24,620
UFOs taking the you know taking the

662
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:26,570
subject seriously and getting all

663
00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:28,370
aspects of their government involved

664
00:28:33,130 --> 00:28:31,220
which is really something that I would

665
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:33,140
like to see other countries fall in

666
00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:34,930
place and do the same thing would be

667
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:37,300
would really get somewhere I think I

668
00:28:41,650 --> 00:28:40,010
think it would help a lot and I as you

669
00:28:43,660 --> 00:28:41,660
know Martin I've spent a lot of time in

670
00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:43,670
Chile and I've I've worked with the

671
00:28:45,730 --> 00:28:45,230
government agency they're called the

672
00:28:49,049 --> 00:28:45,740
sefa

673
00:28:51,419 --> 00:28:49,059
which is a great operation and as

674
00:28:53,220 --> 00:28:51,429
said they're the government they're just

675
00:28:55,049 --> 00:28:53,230
throughout all the different agencies

676
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:55,059
different departments of military and

677
00:29:00,570 --> 00:28:57,850
aviation recognize that this is a

678
00:29:02,999 --> 00:29:00,580
legitimate issue and they have a system

679
00:29:05,460 --> 00:29:03,009
in place so that cases get reported when

680
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:05,470
pilots mainly through pilots and they

681
00:29:09,629 --> 00:29:06,970
study them and they have scientific

682
00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:09,639
teams that work with the Sephiroth on a

683
00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:11,980
volunteer basis and and do lots of good

684
00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:14,470
work so they don't have this kind of

685
00:29:18,749 --> 00:29:17,080
stigma in Chile that we have here and I

686
00:29:21,239 --> 00:29:18,759
I do agree with you that this is

687
00:29:23,609 --> 00:29:21,249
something that you know I hope will

688
00:29:26,639 --> 00:29:23,619
change in the United States and I think

689
00:29:28,230 --> 00:29:26,649
Chile can be a model for how I would

690
00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:28,240
think that the rest of the world should

691
00:29:32,609 --> 00:29:30,129
approach this it's really just being

692
00:29:35,850 --> 00:29:32,619
willing to study it when things occur

693
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:35,860
and not to just write it off and not to

694
00:29:41,070 --> 00:29:39,039
make the witnesses feel that there must

695
00:29:42,869 --> 00:29:41,080
be something wrong with them for seeing

696
00:29:46,019 --> 00:29:42,879
something that they saw you know it's

697
00:29:47,549 --> 00:29:46,029
partly is that I mean I've spoken to so

698
00:29:51,529 --> 00:29:47,559
many witnesses over the years and I know

699
00:29:53,879 --> 00:29:51,539
mark has to and they're patriotic

700
00:29:55,259 --> 00:29:53,889
Americans they're military people and

701
00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:55,269
when something like this happens and

702
00:29:58,889 --> 00:29:57,039
they're not taken seriously it can be

703
00:30:01,230 --> 00:29:58,899
very damaging to them and on many levels

704
00:30:06,389 --> 00:30:01,240
and it's just not the right thing to do

705
00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:06,399
right also in the UFO field we've had

706
00:30:11,159 --> 00:30:08,980
some bumbles here and there and which

707
00:30:15,419 --> 00:30:11,169
you know there was of course the

708
00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:15,429
Robertson panel back in 1953 kind of put

709
00:30:19,109 --> 00:30:17,110
out there too there was too many UFO

710
00:30:20,940 --> 00:30:19,119
reports coming in we have to do

711
00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:20,950
something about it well you know let's

712
00:30:26,159 --> 00:30:22,990
ridicule let's diminish it in different

713
00:30:30,869 --> 00:30:26,169
ways so there's always that stigma like

714
00:30:33,869 --> 00:30:30,879
you spoke about earlier but mmm I lost

715
00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:33,879
my thread where he's going with this but

716
00:30:42,269 --> 00:30:39,369
anyway it's a it's oh I know what I was

717
00:30:44,460 --> 00:30:42,279
saying it the the fact is that you know

718
00:30:47,009 --> 00:30:44,470
when things go wrong in the UFO field

719
00:30:49,649 --> 00:30:47,019
like they do and someone will come out

720
00:30:51,659 --> 00:30:49,659
with something that's a little too far

721
00:30:53,070 --> 00:30:51,669
out there and not really do the research

722
00:30:55,109 --> 00:30:53,080
and everything and Leslie I've always

723
00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:55,119
noticed you don't call yourself you

724
00:30:59,700 --> 00:30:56,980
follow just you're a journalist but

725
00:31:01,740 --> 00:30:59,710
you're very very careful and I think the

726
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:01,750
only thing that I can say is you you

727
00:31:04,830 --> 00:31:02,890
know and it sounds like

728
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:04,840
mark you seem very similar and it sounds

729
00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:07,120
like the type of person to set an

730
00:31:11,910 --> 00:31:10,390
example more than anything else and I'm

731
00:31:15,410 --> 00:31:11,920
just saying that because I do appreciate

732
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:15,420
the fact that you are cautious I

733
00:31:20,490 --> 00:31:18,010
appreciate that the you know at the

734
00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:20,500
center we've tried to follow in the

735
00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:24,820
footsteps and the examples set by J

736
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:25,420
Allen Hynek

737
00:31:31,470 --> 00:31:29,010
our our founder and of course the

738
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:31,480
principal scientific adviser to the Air

739
00:31:38,130 --> 00:31:35,170
Force's Project Blue Book but Allen

740
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:38,140
wanted the center to be a typical

741
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:40,570
scientific organization more of a think

742
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:44,130
tank than a investigative organization

743
00:31:48,170 --> 00:31:46,210
with with you know thousand

744
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:48,180
investigators around the country and

745
00:31:52,770 --> 00:31:50,650
within the limits of you know what we

746
00:31:55,890 --> 00:31:52,780
had for resources and personnel we've at

747
00:31:58,800 --> 00:31:55,900
least I think stayed faithful to that in

748
00:32:00,780 --> 00:31:58,810
spirit and our execution even though

749
00:32:04,190 --> 00:32:00,790
we've never been able to to accomplish

750
00:32:09,270 --> 00:32:07,410
I think the key Martin is to just you

751
00:32:13,170 --> 00:32:09,280
know one cannot assume that we know what

752
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:13,180
UFOs are you know there's some kind of

753
00:32:18,150 --> 00:32:15,370
mysterious phenomenon there unexplained

754
00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:18,160
objects in the sky and I think so much

755
00:32:22,410 --> 00:32:20,830
of the problem that we have when with

756
00:32:23,940 --> 00:32:22,420
issues that you just described where

757
00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:23,950
where these things will come out of the

758
00:32:28,710 --> 00:32:26,070
UFO community that seem really kind of

759
00:32:31,890 --> 00:32:28,720
overblown and not research and so on is

760
00:32:33,630 --> 00:32:31,900
so much because people are assuming that

761
00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:33,640
we haven't that these are

762
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:35,830
extraterrestrial without enough data to

763
00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:37,840
back that up and they get so carried

764
00:32:42,420 --> 00:32:41,230
away with the desire to prove that and

765
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:42,430
so they just kind of lose their

766
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:44,290
rationality but I think it's important

767
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:45,850
that people step back from that and

768
00:32:50,370 --> 00:32:48,310
realize we don't have proof of that and

769
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:50,380
we don't know what they are and I think

770
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:53,170
that's when you say caution I don't know

771
00:32:56,940 --> 00:32:54,730
if it's caution as much as it is just

772
00:32:59,940 --> 00:32:56,950
being rational about what we know what

773
00:33:03,960 --> 00:32:59,950
we don't know right there are so many

774
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:03,970
times that someone has already a little

775
00:33:08,610 --> 00:33:06,640
say they've written a book and knew it

776
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:08,620
you know something new comes along like

777
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:10,960
I don't know if you heard it seems like

778
00:33:16,780 --> 00:33:12,910
Kecksburg might be explained as a

779
00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:16,790
military you know craft or something

780
00:33:21,490 --> 00:33:19,790
that that news is just breaking recently

781
00:33:22,780 --> 00:33:21,500
so whether that's true or not I'm not

782
00:33:25,510 --> 00:33:22,790
really sure I haven't really looked into

783
00:33:28,170 --> 00:33:25,520
it but the fact of the matter is there's

784
00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:28,180
people who've written books on like

785
00:33:34,180 --> 00:33:32,180
other situations new evidence comes

786
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:34,190
forward and they still stick to their

787
00:33:37,870 --> 00:33:36,320
guns because it's there I don't want to

788
00:33:39,610 --> 00:33:37,880
say cash cow because nobody makes a lot

789
00:33:41,140 --> 00:33:39,620
of money in this field but they're

790
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:41,150
they're sticking to their guns and

791
00:33:47,010 --> 00:33:43,550
unfortunately that's not science you

792
00:33:49,810 --> 00:33:47,020
know science has to be open to whatever

793
00:33:52,090 --> 00:33:49,820
comes along as far as evidence goes and

794
00:33:55,660 --> 00:33:52,100
I think the UFO field could really use a

795
00:33:58,330 --> 00:33:55,670
little more of that yeah I mean

796
00:34:02,200 --> 00:33:58,340
sometimes the cases they get the most

797
00:34:04,750 --> 00:34:02,210
publicity Rendlesham and you know of

798
00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:04,760
course you just mentioned that one the

799
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:07,310
they're not really the strongest cases

800
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:10,250
then they're not the most evidential and

801
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:14,510
cases that are you know litter the files

802
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,410
basically of all types whether physical

803
00:34:21,820 --> 00:34:20,480
traces and vehicle interference like you

804
00:34:25,150 --> 00:34:21,830
mentioned an introduction that I've been

805
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:25,160
interested in there are quite intriguing

806
00:34:30,490 --> 00:34:28,310
cases there that you know people just

807
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:30,500
don't know much about which by the way

808
00:34:35,620 --> 00:34:33,650
was true when we presented data to the

809
00:34:38,700 --> 00:34:35,630
scientific panel back in the 90s that

810
00:34:41,290 --> 00:34:38,710
Peter Sturrock put together while the

811
00:34:44,919 --> 00:34:41,300
scientists that we talked to certainly

812
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:44,929
were not convinced that you know that

813
00:34:48,909 --> 00:34:46,610
things were extraterrestrial all that

814
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:48,919
they were intrigued enough not to reject

815
00:34:53,770 --> 00:34:52,010
the phenomena out of hand and and in

816
00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:53,780
fact said that it that it was worthy of

817
00:34:59,860 --> 00:34:56,270
some investigation if not you know

818
00:35:01,450 --> 00:34:59,870
government funding mm-hmm I want to just

819
00:35:03,370 --> 00:35:01,460
talk real quickly we only have a few

820
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:03,380
minutes left here about J Allen Hynek

821
00:35:08,490 --> 00:35:05,510
you know Harry is working for the

822
00:35:12,130 --> 00:35:08,500
government as chief astronomer scientist

823
00:35:13,780 --> 00:35:12,140
for a project Bluebook do you know if he

824
00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:13,790
the one thing that I've always been

825
00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:17,630
curious about did he kind of come over

826
00:35:23,380 --> 00:35:19,580
to the other side of there's really

827
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:23,390
something to this on in an instant or

828
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:26,810
was this a slow and gradual extremely

829
00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:30,160
slow and extremely gradual mm-hmm he

830
00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:33,030
the first Inklings of the fact that

831
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:36,220
things were not easy to explain always

832
00:35:43,230 --> 00:35:41,770
in the early 1950s and gave a paper a

833
00:35:46,890 --> 00:35:43,240
talk and then a paper in the optical

834
00:35:49,770 --> 00:35:46,900
Society of America journal about lights

835
00:35:52,339 --> 00:35:49,780
he kept it very much at the level of

836
00:35:56,609 --> 00:35:52,349
just lights that were hard to explain

837
00:35:59,430 --> 00:35:56,619
and that as time went on he you know

838
00:36:01,319 --> 00:35:59,440
waffled back and forth he was and he

839
00:36:03,299 --> 00:36:01,329
wasn't the most decisive guy but he was

840
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:03,309
incredibly curious guide and an

841
00:36:08,220 --> 00:36:05,920
extremely scientifically honest guy and

842
00:36:11,819 --> 00:36:08,230
so as time went on tickly into the

843
00:36:14,190 --> 00:36:11,829
sixties he just said you know there are

844
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:14,200
obviously unexplained things the Air

845
00:36:19,529 --> 00:36:15,970
Force is clearly not seriously

846
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:19,539
investigating this and so you know it's

847
00:36:23,370 --> 00:36:21,490
better be me that nobody else is

848
00:36:28,349 --> 00:36:23,380
stepping up to the plate so I am going

849
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:28,359
to start speaking out about it now we

850
00:36:32,670 --> 00:36:29,440
only had like I say we only have a

851
00:36:34,650 --> 00:36:32,680
couple minutes left do you want to put

852
00:36:39,930 --> 00:36:34,660
out there how people might be able to

853
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:39,940
help out with UFO data well the first of

854
00:36:48,210 --> 00:36:43,599
all the website UFO Datanet very very

855
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:48,220
easy to remember and people can go there

856
00:36:51,359 --> 00:36:49,569
and read about what we're doing that's

857
00:36:54,690 --> 00:36:51,369
the first thing familiarize yourself

858
00:36:56,450 --> 00:36:54,700
with our plans send us any questions you

859
00:36:59,309 --> 00:36:56,460
have there's an email address for that

860
00:37:01,170 --> 00:36:59,319
if you have technical skills we've

861
00:37:02,910 --> 00:37:01,180
listed them on the volunteer page or

862
00:37:06,269 --> 00:37:02,920
other types of things we're looking for

863
00:37:09,329 --> 00:37:06,279
please feel free to volunteer and we

864
00:37:11,279 --> 00:37:09,339
wouldn't mind getting a donation from

865
00:37:14,010 --> 00:37:11,289
people who are who think that our idea

866
00:37:17,370 --> 00:37:14,020
is worth supporting right now Leslie

867
00:37:19,890 --> 00:37:17,380
quickly you wrote that article in The

868
00:37:22,890 --> 00:37:19,900
Huffington Post and now it's starting to

869
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:22,900
snowball a little bit well I'm glad to

870
00:37:26,549 --> 00:37:24,910
hear that I mean I'm glad you're calling

871
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:26,559
it a snowball he has a there there was a

872
00:37:31,710 --> 00:37:28,450
story and Mother Jones which was really

873
00:37:33,329 --> 00:37:31,720
great and Billy Cox did a piece this

874
00:37:34,829 --> 00:37:33,339
week which I also thought was excellent

875
00:37:37,049 --> 00:37:34,839
and I'm just happy that we're getting

876
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:37,059
serious coverage hang on just a second

877
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:38,710
we have a couple and we still have a

878
00:37:43,859 --> 00:37:41,680
little time here okay hello caller

879
00:37:46,890 --> 00:37:43,869
please say your first name and

880
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:46,900
was a question if you would they're

881
00:37:51,539 --> 00:37:47,710
wrong

882
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:51,549
what's your name caller 19 he was been

883
00:37:56,460 --> 00:37:52,210
lost

884
00:37:59,730 --> 00:37:56,470
Oh Ben how are you Ben good good looking

885
00:38:03,359 --> 00:37:59,740
to the show and one of the see is this

886
00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:03,369
recording or you're on the air live

887
00:38:09,089 --> 00:38:05,529
right now okay

888
00:38:13,799 --> 00:38:09,099
yes just had a question about for Leslie

889
00:38:17,099 --> 00:38:13,809
about you know the fact that Ray has the

890
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:17,109
magnetometer and film evidence sitting

891
00:38:21,150 --> 00:38:19,450
at his house and I guess who's been

892
00:38:23,309 --> 00:38:21,160
invited out there and wondering if she

893
00:38:24,599 --> 00:38:23,319
was going to go out there and and take a

894
00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:24,609
look at that evidence that they're

895
00:38:30,390 --> 00:38:26,200
trying to work on now that already

896
00:38:35,069 --> 00:38:30,400
exists I'm I'm not sure what the call is

897
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:35,079
referring to all right ray Stanford okay

898
00:38:40,769 --> 00:38:38,410
are you familiar with with him yeah I

899
00:38:43,799 --> 00:38:40,779
don't I don't know what evidence or what

900
00:38:47,489 --> 00:38:43,809
situation he's referring to though he's

901
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:47,499
got magnetometer reading some of the and

902
00:38:52,319 --> 00:38:49,690
several data points of the same objects

903
00:38:53,940 --> 00:38:52,329
I think he might have invited you have

904
00:38:55,979 --> 00:38:53,950
to look at those I've seen the image

905
00:38:59,640 --> 00:38:55,989
myself I'm the chief investigator for

906
00:39:01,200 --> 00:38:59,650
MUFON in Virginia you have evidence of

907
00:39:03,269 --> 00:39:01,210
things that you're looking for right now

908
00:39:06,029 --> 00:39:03,279
any project I think the two of you

909
00:39:08,279 --> 00:39:06,039
should get together and and take a look

910
00:39:10,769 --> 00:39:08,289
at it because it's pretty astounding and

911
00:39:12,450 --> 00:39:10,779
that thing Martin will agree I've never

912
00:39:13,890 --> 00:39:12,460
saw that part of it but Ray is an

913
00:39:15,539 --> 00:39:13,900
amazing guy there's no doubt about it

914
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:15,549
well thank you so much for that

915
00:39:27,599 --> 00:39:25,279
all right Ben thanks a lot thanks a lot

916
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:27,609
all right so we're going to be wrapping

917
00:39:32,039 --> 00:39:28,450
it up

918
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:32,049
thanks so much you too and the I posted

919
00:39:39,180 --> 00:39:35,890
the website right on podcast UFO coms

920
00:39:42,299 --> 00:39:39,190
right on our sidebar to get to UFO data

921
00:39:42,989 --> 00:39:42,309
net Martin thanks so much for having us

922
00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:42,999
on tonight

923
00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:44,529
yeah really appreciate it and I hope

924
00:39:48,319 --> 00:39:46,480
everybody will go check out our website

925
00:39:51,450 --> 00:39:48,329
all right you took you two take care

926
00:39:53,099 --> 00:39:51,460
thanks all right hang on everyone

927
00:40:29,509 --> 00:39:53,109
we're going to be getting Michael

928
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:33,150
hello hello Michael Shermer how are you

929
00:40:40,289 --> 00:40:36,249
I am channeling you from another

930
00:40:42,299 --> 00:40:40,299
extraterrestrial world here but so I

931
00:40:43,979 --> 00:40:42,309
think I a little bit of background noise

932
00:40:55,410 --> 00:40:43,989
there I'm not sure if you have that

933
00:40:58,319 --> 00:40:55,420
website open yep no problem okay I just

934
00:41:01,680 --> 00:40:58,329
turned up oh I see yeah [\h__\h] it got it

935
00:41:04,739 --> 00:41:01,690
yeah yeah we're doing a little time

936
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:04,749
travelling there heard you in it that in

937
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:06,130
the future yes

938
00:41:11,039 --> 00:41:07,680
thanks so much for being on the show

939
00:41:13,979 --> 00:41:11,049
it's it's a it's a real pleasure to have

940
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:13,989
you on and your name has come up many

941
00:41:19,739 --> 00:41:16,930
times over this last four years that

942
00:41:26,999 --> 00:41:19,749
I've done this show and you know maybe

943
00:41:29,130 --> 00:41:27,009
not always in a good way but anyway we

944
00:41:32,130 --> 00:41:29,140
had we had some people email a couple of

945
00:41:34,140 --> 00:41:32,140
questions in but first of all if for the

946
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:34,150
person and there's probably not too many

947
00:41:38,789 --> 00:41:35,680
but for someone out there that has not

948
00:41:40,229 --> 00:41:38,799
heard of who dr. Michael Shermer is can

949
00:41:41,609 --> 00:41:40,239
you give your background and I

950
00:41:44,549 --> 00:41:41,619
understand that you actually had an

951
00:41:45,059 --> 00:41:44,559
interest in paranormal when you were

952
00:41:49,109 --> 00:41:45,069
younger

953
00:41:51,779 --> 00:41:49,119
oh yes absolutely well in terms of my

954
00:41:54,689 --> 00:41:51,789
bona fides the publisher of skeptic

955
00:41:57,180 --> 00:41:54,699
magazine and a monthly columnist for

956
00:41:58,469 --> 00:41:57,190
Scientific American I teach a critical

957
00:42:01,620 --> 00:41:58,479
thinking course at Chapman University

958
00:42:03,630 --> 00:42:01,630
called scepticism 101 one day a week and

959
00:42:05,459 --> 00:42:03,640
and then I write science books and

960
00:42:08,789 --> 00:42:05,469
that's so that's pretty much what I do

961
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:08,799
for a living the UFO subject you know

962
00:42:14,939 --> 00:42:11,650
which I include alien abductions as well

963
00:42:17,789 --> 00:42:14,949
as the SETI program the whole range is a

964
00:42:19,739 --> 00:42:17,799
pretty normal part of of what we do at

965
00:42:22,410 --> 00:42:19,749
skeptic and the whole skeptical movement

966
00:42:24,859 --> 00:42:22,420
is very much involved in trying to

967
00:42:27,749 --> 00:42:24,869
understand the phenomenon and provide

968
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:27,759
terrestrial explanations let's say for

969
00:42:32,939 --> 00:42:29,890
these apparently extraterrestrial

970
00:42:35,069 --> 00:42:32,949
phenomenon and so I've touched on the

971
00:42:37,890 --> 00:42:35,079
subject in several of my books and I

972
00:42:39,530 --> 00:42:37,900
have a personal interest in it I mean

973
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:39,540
would not be interested in the idea that

974
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:42,010
that there could be extraterrestrials

975
00:42:47,220 --> 00:42:44,710
out there but I'm I'm also quick to

976
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:47,230
distinguish between the question of our

977
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:49,960
extraterrestrial intelligences out there

978
00:42:55,410 --> 00:42:52,480
somewhere in the cosmos versus had they

979
00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:55,420
come here and I'm inclined to lean

980
00:43:00,480 --> 00:42:58,480
toward saying that they probably are out

981
00:43:02,730 --> 00:43:00,490
there somewhere in the cosmos because it

982
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:02,740
would be you know a great waste of space

983
00:43:07,890 --> 00:43:05,530
as Carl Sagan like to say if you know we

984
00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:07,900
were alone and the only one but we don't

985
00:43:12,210 --> 00:43:10,150
know for sure so you know it's it's just

986
00:43:14,430 --> 00:43:12,220
a question of continuing to look and

987
00:43:18,030 --> 00:43:14,440
search on the other hand have they come

988
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:18,040
here very probably no simply because the

989
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:19,810
evidence is you know not strong enough

990
00:43:26,250 --> 00:43:22,810
it's still on the level of anecdotal so

991
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:26,260
I tend to be a little more positive that

992
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:28,240
ETS are out there somewhere a little

993
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:29,890
little more skeptical that they've come

994
00:43:33,660 --> 00:43:31,930
here yeah the one of the one of the

995
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:33,670
things I think about now I'm not saying

996
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:36,310
that I've never really committed to

997
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:38,770
seeing that UFOs or the sighting I had

998
00:43:42,690 --> 00:43:40,510
was extraterrestrial I've never really

999
00:43:43,980 --> 00:43:42,700
committed to that because I've said a

1000
00:43:45,630 --> 00:43:43,990
number of times in the show could be

1001
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:45,640
something that no one's even thought of

1002
00:43:53,460 --> 00:43:50,530
you know at this point but I had I had

1003
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:53,470
an astrophysicist dr. Jeffrey Bennett on

1004
00:43:58,950 --> 00:43:57,010
a while back and a number of people that

1005
00:44:01,500 --> 00:43:58,960
listen to the show regularly have heard

1006
00:44:04,290 --> 00:44:01,510
this but one of the things he said he

1007
00:44:08,310 --> 00:44:04,300
was a senior visiting scientist at NASA

1008
00:44:12,270 --> 00:44:08,320
and he and his colleagues quietly agreed

1009
00:44:14,430 --> 00:44:12,280
that if a if a civilization can get

1010
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:14,440
through the bottleneck of technology

1011
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:16,090
without blowing themselves up then

1012
00:44:20,490 --> 00:44:17,920
they'll probably be traveling the Stars

1013
00:44:21,930 --> 00:44:20,500
and I wonder what you thought about that

1014
00:44:24,540 --> 00:44:21,940
and you know you can look at what we're

1015
00:44:26,220 --> 00:44:24,550
trying to do and if we could travel the

1016
00:44:29,070 --> 00:44:26,230
Stars we certainly would be I would

1017
00:44:30,690 --> 00:44:29,080
imagine oh yes absolutely I know the

1018
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:30,700
arguments and I think they're they're

1019
00:44:35,730 --> 00:44:33,450
reasonable that is if we do encounter an

1020
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:35,740
extraterrestrial intelligence it's it's

1021
00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:39,130
very very likely not to be anything like

1022
00:44:44,940 --> 00:44:42,400
us not only physically so right off the

1023
00:44:46,890 --> 00:44:44,950
bat we can discount the alien abduction

1024
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:46,900
stories in which the aliens or bipedal

1025
00:44:50,610 --> 00:44:48,730
primates that look pretty much like us

1026
00:44:51,130 --> 00:44:50,620
except they don't have body hair and

1027
00:44:53,380 --> 00:44:51,140
they have

1028
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:53,390
and almond-shaped eyes and so forth I

1029
00:45:00,609 --> 00:44:58,160
mean the chances of another sequence of

1030
00:45:02,829 --> 00:45:00,619
of evolution happening in lockstep with

1031
00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:02,839
what happened on earth on some other

1032
00:45:08,019 --> 00:45:06,049
planet that ends up with a bipedal

1033
00:45:11,220 --> 00:45:08,029
primate I mean this has only happened a

1034
00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:11,230
couple of times in the billion years of

1035
00:45:17,079 --> 00:45:14,150
evolution on earth and they've all gone

1036
00:45:19,089 --> 00:45:17,089
extinct except one us and you know

1037
00:45:21,759 --> 00:45:19,099
considering the tens of millions of

1038
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:21,769
species on earth you know only a couple

1039
00:45:28,359 --> 00:45:24,890
you know the new world monkeys the great

1040
00:45:30,940 --> 00:45:28,369
apes of which we are a part have become

1041
00:45:32,170 --> 00:45:30,950
you know bipedal primates the chance of

1042
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:32,180
that happening somewhere else are

1043
00:45:36,670 --> 00:45:34,910
virtually zero so I mean there's a

1044
00:45:38,499 --> 00:45:36,680
counter-argument to that I'll give you

1045
00:45:40,299 --> 00:45:38,509
that even Richard Dawkins endorses a

1046
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:40,309
little bit that he and I had a little

1047
00:45:44,410 --> 00:45:42,170
debate on this that you know there is

1048
00:45:46,690 --> 00:45:44,420
such a thing as convergent evolution

1049
00:45:48,460 --> 00:45:46,700
that is you know fish are always going

1050
00:45:50,349 --> 00:45:48,470
to look kind of like fish if they have

1051
00:45:51,970 --> 00:45:50,359
to swim through a dense medium of water

1052
00:45:53,769 --> 00:45:51,980
on any planet you have to have a

1053
00:45:55,839 --> 00:45:53,779
fusiform body to slide through the water

1054
00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:55,849
and a fairly efficient manner if you're

1055
00:46:00,220 --> 00:45:57,920
going to fly you have to have something

1056
00:46:02,170 --> 00:46:00,230
like wings so there's going to be

1057
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:02,180
creatures and other planets that if they

1058
00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:03,680
fly they have to have something like an

1059
00:46:07,390 --> 00:46:05,569
aerodynamic structure like a wing so

1060
00:46:09,819 --> 00:46:07,400
it's possible you could you know you

1061
00:46:11,559 --> 00:46:09,829
could get something with limbs and you

1062
00:46:13,839 --> 00:46:11,569
know all the sensory apparatus and a

1063
00:46:15,789 --> 00:46:13,849
brain on one end and you know the waste

1064
00:46:18,299 --> 00:46:15,799
disposal system on the other end and so

1065
00:46:20,799 --> 00:46:18,309
forth you know something like let's do

1066
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:20,809
but still you know but look at the

1067
00:46:25,269 --> 00:46:22,249
diversity of life on Earth

1068
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:25,279
where you know the vast majority 99.999%

1069
00:46:30,339 --> 00:46:27,680
of all species on earth looked nothing

1070
00:46:32,289 --> 00:46:30,349
like humans so you know it's too

1071
00:46:34,150 --> 00:46:32,299
chauvinistic I think to imagine aliens

1072
00:46:36,729 --> 00:46:34,160
on another planet being something like

1073
00:46:40,329 --> 00:46:36,739
so I think we can just dispense with

1074
00:46:43,180 --> 00:46:40,339
that no I I just want to say my side of

1075
00:46:46,059 --> 00:46:43,190
that I I think you know we're were there

1076
00:46:48,729 --> 00:46:46,069
right now we're the smartest thing going

1077
00:46:51,819 --> 00:46:48,739
on this planet not by much when it comes

1078
00:46:54,849 --> 00:46:51,829
to dolphins or whatever but you know and

1079
00:46:57,390 --> 00:46:54,859
we evolved in the way we have evolved

1080
00:47:02,079 --> 00:46:57,400
with a you know binocular vision and

1081
00:47:05,019 --> 00:47:02,089
which also kind of lends to bipedal and

1082
00:47:07,089 --> 00:47:05,029
all that you know I'm not a scientist

1083
00:47:09,729 --> 00:47:07,099
but I'm just saying that this is how we

1084
00:47:12,789 --> 00:47:09,739
evolved as the smartest things on this

1085
00:47:15,609 --> 00:47:12,799
planet so I wouldn't discount totally

1086
00:47:17,859 --> 00:47:15,619
that it could be possibly the same thing

1087
00:47:19,929 --> 00:47:17,869
on another planet you know I know

1088
00:47:23,799 --> 00:47:19,939
there's all kinds of things involved is

1089
00:47:26,019 --> 00:47:23,809
gravity there's the oxygen and whatever

1090
00:47:27,759 --> 00:47:26,029
levels whatever it is they're breathing

1091
00:47:30,669 --> 00:47:27,769
I understand that there's all types of

1092
00:47:33,579 --> 00:47:30,679
variables and through evolution all

1093
00:47:35,769 --> 00:47:33,589
types of things can happen but this is

1094
00:47:37,959 --> 00:47:35,779
how we evolved as the smartest beings on

1095
00:47:41,589 --> 00:47:37,969
this planet and so I wouldn't discount

1096
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:41,599
it myself sure and and and not everybody

1097
00:47:45,099 --> 00:47:43,249
does discount it I'm just kind of giving

1098
00:47:50,919 --> 00:47:45,109
you my thoughts as I said Richard

1099
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:50,929
Dawkins based on the work of oh I forget

1100
00:47:57,459 --> 00:47:54,650
the paleontologist in England now Simon

1101
00:47:58,599 --> 00:47:57,469
Conway Morris he has he has a book in

1102
00:48:01,120 --> 00:47:58,609
which he makes this argument about

1103
00:48:03,579 --> 00:48:01,130
convergent evolution any case that

1104
00:48:05,529 --> 00:48:03,589
that's sort of a separate story there

1105
00:48:07,419 --> 00:48:05,539
the other the other point that about the

1106
00:48:10,689 --> 00:48:07,429
alien abduction accounts the narratives

1107
00:48:14,229 --> 00:48:10,699
people tell again I think they lean more

1108
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:14,239
toward being human imagination because

1109
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:15,529
you know the aliens are always doing

1110
00:48:20,649 --> 00:48:17,599
very human-like things you know the you

1111
00:48:22,179 --> 00:48:20,659
know the sexual probing and and you know

1112
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:22,189
the kinds of stuff that appears in these

1113
00:48:27,370 --> 00:48:24,890
narrative accounts very much resembles

1114
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:27,380
lucid dreams and the kinds of sense

1115
00:48:33,819 --> 00:48:30,890
presences that people have in sleep

1116
00:48:36,609 --> 00:48:33,829
paralysis experiences it's all just too

1117
00:48:39,429 --> 00:48:36,619
fraught with human frailty human

1118
00:48:41,709 --> 00:48:39,439
psychology that you know it's more

1119
00:48:44,409 --> 00:48:41,719
likely that than it is that you know ETS

1120
00:48:46,149 --> 00:48:44,419
happen to have evolved to look pretty

1121
00:48:48,729 --> 00:48:46,159
much like us and they manage to find

1122
00:48:50,949 --> 00:48:48,739
their way here on earth from some other

1123
00:48:52,539 --> 00:48:50,959
planet and that brings me back back to

1124
00:48:54,609 --> 00:48:52,549
your first point which i think is a good

1125
00:48:57,249 --> 00:48:54,619
one that you know if you take Moore's

1126
00:48:59,189 --> 00:48:57,259
law of doubling the power of you know

1127
00:49:01,419 --> 00:48:59,199
pretty much anything not not just

1128
00:49:04,989 --> 00:49:01,429
computer chips but you know DNA

1129
00:49:08,140 --> 00:49:04,999
sequencing and and per-capita GDP and

1130
00:49:09,969 --> 00:49:08,150
you know space travel and automated cars

1131
00:49:12,269 --> 00:49:09,979
and things like this I mean we've made

1132
00:49:15,009 --> 00:49:12,279
huge progress in just a hundred years

1133
00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:15,019
imagine what what things will be like

1134
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:17,689
here in a hundred thousand years and the

1135
00:49:21,460 --> 00:49:18,650
chances of another

1136
00:49:24,099 --> 00:49:21,470
intelligence evolving in lockstep time

1137
00:49:27,430 --> 00:49:24,109
with us on some other planet is also

1138
00:49:30,460 --> 00:49:27,440
remote I'm doing that yeah

1139
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:30,470
because of extinction and I yeah I

1140
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:32,480
totally understand that part yeah I mean

1141
00:49:37,779 --> 00:49:34,690
just just whatever the starting point is

1142
00:49:39,999 --> 00:49:37,789
you know whether it was a billion or 1.1

1143
00:49:42,220 --> 00:49:40,009
billion you know that isn't that isn't

1144
00:49:44,950 --> 00:49:42,230
much on a geological timescale but on a

1145
00:49:47,230 --> 00:49:44,960
on a cultural technological timescale

1146
00:49:49,359 --> 00:49:47,240
you know a million years or ten million

1147
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:49,369
years 100 million years would be just a

1148
00:49:54,579 --> 00:49:52,249
game-changer and so and that's why again

1149
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:54,589
I don't think like the stories like with

1150
00:49:58,059 --> 00:49:56,480
Roswell where you know that the aliens

1151
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,069
land and we back engineered their

1152
00:50:01,210 --> 00:49:59,839
technology and their spaceships we're

1153
00:50:03,339 --> 00:50:01,220
you know just barely better than our

1154
00:50:05,859 --> 00:50:03,349
than our rockets and jets and spacecraft

1155
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:05,869
you know just maybe a few years or you

1156
00:50:10,749 --> 00:50:08,210
know a hundred years you know better in

1157
00:50:12,910 --> 00:50:10,759
superiors is ridiculous they would be

1158
00:50:14,589 --> 00:50:12,920
ten thousand years a hundred thousand

1159
00:50:17,230 --> 00:50:14,599
years a million years more advanced than

1160
00:50:19,450 --> 00:50:17,240
us if we do encounter them I mean they

1161
00:50:20,650 --> 00:50:19,460
could be behind us but of course they're

1162
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:20,660
not going to come here if they're behind

1163
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:22,249
us technologically we have to just run

1164
00:50:25,989 --> 00:50:24,410
into them if we land on Mars or

1165
00:50:26,739 --> 00:50:25,999
something which we haven't seen anything

1166
00:50:29,380 --> 00:50:26,749
like that yet

1167
00:50:31,809 --> 00:50:29,390
but so if we do encounter them here

1168
00:50:33,819 --> 00:50:31,819
they're gonna be super vastly superior

1169
00:50:35,259 --> 00:50:33,829
this is why I'm in Chicago makes the

1170
00:50:38,259 --> 00:50:35,269
point that it could be there they're

1171
00:50:39,789 --> 00:50:38,269
here or there we're like ants to them

1172
00:50:42,579 --> 00:50:39,799
you know the ants don't even know we're

1173
00:50:44,410 --> 00:50:42,589
around you know they're not this so it

1174
00:50:46,690 --> 00:50:44,420
would be something like that that's a

1175
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:46,700
reasonable argument and it's you know

1176
00:50:49,450 --> 00:50:48,079
part of the you know Fermi's paradox

1177
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:49,460
where is everybody

1178
00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:51,890
surely anybody that's like us would have

1179
00:50:56,079 --> 00:50:54,230
already populated the galaxy you could

1180
00:50:57,940 --> 00:50:56,089
do it in a few million years I think 10

1181
00:51:00,279 --> 00:50:57,950
million years is the estimate which is

1182
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:00,289
nothing on a you know geological

1183
00:51:04,569 --> 00:51:02,569
timescale you know a few million years

1184
00:51:06,759 --> 00:51:04,579
on a geological timescale you could miss

1185
00:51:09,220 --> 00:51:06,769
a species changing entirely just no

1186
00:51:11,589 --> 00:51:09,230
fossils are left and so that that's

1187
00:51:13,359 --> 00:51:11,599
entirely possible but again the fact

1188
00:51:16,089 --> 00:51:13,369
that it's possible doesn't mean it

1189
00:51:19,150 --> 00:51:16,099
happened and in any case where are the

1190
00:51:21,309 --> 00:51:19,160
were the self-replicating probes from

1191
00:51:23,710 --> 00:51:21,319
these alien technologies you know the

1192
00:51:26,289 --> 00:51:23,720
equivalent of the monolith on mar on the

1193
00:51:27,999 --> 00:51:26,299
moon in 2001 you know if we if we

1194
00:51:30,249 --> 00:51:28,009
uncovered something like that on the

1195
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:30,259
moon which is why Kubrick put that in

1196
00:51:34,690 --> 00:51:32,510
the film you know it's unmistakable

1197
00:51:36,550 --> 00:51:34,700
a dream it's not a fuzzy photograph it's

1198
00:51:39,130 --> 00:51:36,560
not a grainy video it's not an anecdote

1199
00:51:39,580 --> 00:51:39,140
about spooky things that go bump in the

1200
00:51:41,590 --> 00:51:39,590
night

1201
00:51:44,290 --> 00:51:41,600
it's an unmistakable sign of

1202
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:44,300
extraterrestrial intelligence something

1203
00:51:49,090 --> 00:51:46,610
like that would definitely convince me

1204
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:49,100
and all other skeptics you know so this

1205
00:51:52,570 --> 00:51:50,810
idea that there's true skeptics and

1206
00:51:55,390 --> 00:51:52,580
debunkers you know the point that Leslie

1207
00:51:58,030 --> 00:51:55,400
Kean makes well you know that may be

1208
00:52:00,070 --> 00:51:58,040
true so in some cases but really if you

1209
00:52:01,420 --> 00:52:00,080
want to convince all of us without any

1210
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:01,430
question at all you know give us

1211
00:52:06,430 --> 00:52:03,530
something like the monolith on the moon

1212
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:06,440
yeah that would that would do it all

1213
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:07,490
right sorry we had some technical

1214
00:52:11,650 --> 00:52:09,650
difficulties here than the live show

1215
00:52:12,970 --> 00:52:11,660
we're back though and Michael I don't

1216
00:52:16,420 --> 00:52:12,980
even remember the conversation we were

1217
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:16,430
in everything just kind of went we were

1218
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:20,000
talking about if if a civilization

1219
00:52:24,460 --> 00:52:21,410
achieves something like what we have

1220
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:24,470
achieved in terms of technology then

1221
00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:26,690
shouldn't they continue on forward

1222
00:52:32,980 --> 00:52:29,710
building let's say self-replicating

1223
00:52:35,140 --> 00:52:32,990
spacecraft that can populate the solar

1224
00:52:36,850 --> 00:52:35,150
system and then the galaxy eventually

1225
00:52:40,030 --> 00:52:36,860
and that this could be done in a few

1226
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:40,040
million to 10 million years even if it's

1227
00:52:45,220 --> 00:52:42,530
not biological forms of intelligence it

1228
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:45,230
could be robotic then shouldn't they

1229
00:52:49,870 --> 00:52:48,290
have been here by now you know Fermi

1230
00:52:53,290 --> 00:52:49,880
paradox there are some people that say

1231
00:52:56,470 --> 00:52:53,300
that I actually spoke to someone many

1232
00:52:59,830 --> 00:52:56,480
years ago that worked in that was up

1233
00:53:01,420 --> 00:52:59,840
during Vietnam supposedly investigating

1234
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:01,430
now this is just a story said he was in

1235
00:53:05,140 --> 00:53:03,770
the Air Force special task unit blah

1236
00:53:07,060 --> 00:53:05,150
blah blah

1237
00:53:09,790 --> 00:53:07,070
he was my insurance agents so I don't

1238
00:53:12,700 --> 00:53:09,800
know if his story was true or not but he

1239
00:53:14,890 --> 00:53:12,710
did say we're a p2 dish we're being

1240
00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:14,900
observed now I don't know that sounds

1241
00:53:20,740 --> 00:53:17,470
pretty wild and pretty far out there but

1242
00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:20,750
you know we just I think you know

1243
00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:22,250
everything is open for debate when it

1244
00:53:28,540 --> 00:53:26,990
comes to this well yes open for you know

1245
00:53:32,260 --> 00:53:28,550
I guess speculation or something like

1246
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:32,270
that is fine but what altum Utley we we

1247
00:53:36,310 --> 00:53:35,210
do at some point need evidence you know

1248
00:53:39,220 --> 00:53:36,320
it's one thing for a science fiction

1249
00:53:41,170 --> 00:53:39,230
writer to imagine this or that or us

1250
00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:41,180
having you know a few drinks imagining

1251
00:53:46,060 --> 00:53:43,910
some interesting ideas but before we

1252
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:46,070
conclude that you know this

1253
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:47,810
but it's possible does it mean it's real

1254
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:49,610
you still need you know one of those

1255
00:53:54,580 --> 00:53:52,010
gadgets from the spacecraft that you

1256
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:54,590
visited or the actual spacecraft itself

1257
00:53:58,270 --> 00:53:56,810
that's it you know hidden at area 51 or

1258
00:54:00,670 --> 00:53:58,280
whatever

1259
00:54:02,050 --> 00:54:00,680
you still got well this is the point in

1260
00:54:03,850 --> 00:54:02,060
biology if you want to name a new

1261
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:03,860
species you have to have a type specimen

1262
00:54:09,070 --> 00:54:07,130
a hollow type you know an actual body

1263
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:09,080
you know that everybody can see and

1264
00:54:13,150 --> 00:54:11,330
dissect and photograph and published in

1265
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:13,160
peer-reviewed journals and so on and

1266
00:54:16,030 --> 00:54:14,330
other people can see it

1267
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:16,040
you know you can't come back from a hike

1268
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:18,290
and tell your fellow biologists I

1269
00:54:20,110 --> 00:54:19,910
discovered a new species well where is

1270
00:54:22,390 --> 00:54:20,120
it

1271
00:54:24,250 --> 00:54:22,400
well you know I got this grainy video

1272
00:54:26,830 --> 00:54:24,260
here of it I can't quite make it out

1273
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:26,840
well but trust me I saw it well you know

1274
00:54:29,850 --> 00:54:28,130
that's not going to that's not going to

1275
00:54:32,950 --> 00:54:29,860
fly you know in the scientific community

1276
00:54:34,930 --> 00:54:32,960
now science is you know theories more or

1277
00:54:40,090 --> 00:54:34,940
less and theories are always open for

1278
00:54:42,340 --> 00:54:40,100
change so what I consider a lot of

1279
00:54:44,230 --> 00:54:42,350
things like the Big Bang Theory dark

1280
00:54:47,380 --> 00:54:44,240
matter dark energy you know all things

1281
00:54:50,260 --> 00:54:47,390
that you know we try to extrapolate but

1282
00:54:52,450 --> 00:54:50,270
we don't really have you know who knows

1283
00:54:54,310 --> 00:54:52,460
in my opinion you're probably going to

1284
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:54,320
think this is crazy but we may find out

1285
00:54:59,230 --> 00:54:56,810
someday that the Big Bang was wrong you

1286
00:55:01,450 --> 00:54:59,240
know that whole theory a lot of things

1287
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:01,460
do point I understand there's like six

1288
00:55:07,180 --> 00:55:04,730
things that really point to it but but

1289
00:55:09,310 --> 00:55:07,190
the the fact that's really hard I think

1290
00:55:11,890 --> 00:55:09,320
for anyone to understand as how

1291
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:11,900
something can start from nothing type of

1292
00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:14,450
thing and that's kind of where where it

1293
00:55:19,690 --> 00:55:17,990
begins as far as I know yeah that's

1294
00:55:21,340 --> 00:55:19,700
right all these theories of theory that

1295
00:55:23,950 --> 00:55:21,350
evolution could be wrong gravity could

1296
00:55:26,650 --> 00:55:23,960
be wrong you know whatever very unlikely

1297
00:55:29,290 --> 00:55:26,660
the the more evidence there is for it

1298
00:55:31,090 --> 00:55:29,300
now there are no truths and science with

1299
00:55:33,970 --> 00:55:31,100
a capital T it's all provisional these

1300
00:55:35,590 --> 00:55:33,980
are provisional truths but still you

1301
00:55:37,690 --> 00:55:35,600
know we gain confidence or lose

1302
00:55:39,790 --> 00:55:37,700
confidence in a theory as time goes on

1303
00:55:42,610 --> 00:55:39,800
and certain theories are pretty robust

1304
00:55:44,830 --> 00:55:42,620
others not so much you know the Big Bang

1305
00:55:46,810 --> 00:55:44,840
Theory you know there's a not the TV

1306
00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:46,820
show but the actual theory you know

1307
00:55:51,070 --> 00:55:49,190
really is really a thing I mean it would

1308
00:55:52,990 --> 00:55:51,080
be quite surprising at this point if it

1309
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:53,000
turned out to be incorrect same thing

1310
00:55:56,470 --> 00:55:54,650
with the theory of evolution other

1311
00:55:58,210 --> 00:55:56,480
string theory you know are kind of in

1312
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:58,220
that Borderlands area we just really

1313
00:56:01,720 --> 00:55:59,119
don't know

1314
00:56:03,460 --> 00:56:01,730
what about parallel universes that's

1315
00:56:06,130 --> 00:56:03,470
another thing there's the other

1316
00:56:07,329 --> 00:56:06,140
multiverse you know there's there's half

1317
00:56:09,749 --> 00:56:07,339
a dozen different versions of the

1318
00:56:12,279 --> 00:56:09,759
multiverse including parallel universes

1319
00:56:14,529 --> 00:56:12,289
they're all about equal in my book that

1320
00:56:16,779 --> 00:56:14,539
is equally unproved but equally possible

1321
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:16,789
based on the mathematics I'm told

1322
00:56:20,589 --> 00:56:18,799
because I don't do that I'm a social

1323
00:56:23,259 --> 00:56:20,599
scientist but what I'm told that you

1324
00:56:24,940 --> 00:56:23,269
know these are all plazas possible but

1325
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:24,950
you know we just said alternately there

1326
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:26,960
needs to be some way to test which one

1327
00:56:31,299 --> 00:56:28,970
is more likely than the other one

1328
00:56:33,249 --> 00:56:31,309
or which one is more mathematically

1329
00:56:34,690 --> 00:56:33,259
possible something like that there in

1330
00:56:36,279 --> 00:56:34,700
other words at some point it can't just

1331
00:56:38,170 --> 00:56:36,289
be you have your theory and I have my

1332
00:56:40,089 --> 00:56:38,180
theory and we we see who talks the

1333
00:56:42,009 --> 00:56:40,099
loudest to see which one is right it

1334
00:56:45,579 --> 00:56:42,019
says that just can't be the way it is

1335
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:45,589
and you know so that again the fact that

1336
00:56:50,499 --> 00:56:47,450
something is possible doesn't mean it's

1337
00:56:53,499 --> 00:56:50,509
likely or real it's just you know and

1338
00:56:55,269 --> 00:56:53,509
lots of things are possible I mean you

1339
00:56:56,710 --> 00:56:55,279
know it's just like my physics friends

1340
00:56:58,450 --> 00:56:56,720
tell me you know the time could run

1341
00:57:00,609 --> 00:56:58,460
backwards you know you could run the

1342
00:57:03,009 --> 00:57:00,619
film of a billiard ball bouncing around

1343
00:57:04,359 --> 00:57:03,019
on a table backwards you wouldn't notice

1344
00:57:06,130 --> 00:57:04,369
the difference but you certainly would

1345
00:57:07,660 --> 00:57:06,140
notice the difference if you cracked an

1346
00:57:10,089 --> 00:57:07,670
egg and dropped an egg on the ground

1347
00:57:11,829 --> 00:57:10,099
versus the egg coming together into a

1348
00:57:13,779 --> 00:57:11,839
solid egg back into your hand running

1349
00:57:16,450 --> 00:57:13,789
the film backwards apparently that's not

1350
00:57:18,519 --> 00:57:16,460
impossible but but again the fact that

1351
00:57:22,979 --> 00:57:18,529
it's so unlikely we can pretty much rule

1352
00:57:25,329 --> 00:57:22,989
out that it will ever happen here so

1353
00:57:27,970 --> 00:57:25,339
just letting the live color know that

1354
00:57:30,609 --> 00:57:27,980
you can call in at six oh three nine six

1355
00:57:32,049 --> 00:57:30,619
seven four OH three oh we had a bunch of

1356
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:32,059
questions come up on the chat room

1357
00:57:37,180 --> 00:57:34,730
that's kind of spun down I can't find

1358
00:57:38,950 --> 00:57:37,190
them but I think one of them was do you

1359
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:38,960
ever think humanity will travel the

1360
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:43,970
Stars oh well we already are

1361
00:57:50,049 --> 00:57:46,970
well interstellar let's say yeah well

1362
00:57:51,220 --> 00:57:50,059
the Voyager spacecraft is why what do

1363
00:57:53,979 --> 00:57:51,230
you mean by humanity the Voyager

1364
00:57:56,170 --> 00:57:53,989
spacecraft has left the solar system

1365
00:57:57,700 --> 00:57:56,180
it's you know beyond the heliopause so

1366
00:57:59,410 --> 00:57:57,710
that would count I don't know if that

1367
00:58:01,989 --> 00:57:59,420
technically counts as interstellar but

1368
00:58:04,620 --> 00:58:01,999
it's it's you know beyond out of our

1369
00:58:08,049 --> 00:58:04,630
solar system so I think that counts as

1370
00:58:11,259 --> 00:58:08,059
we humans humans it apparently is a much

1371
00:58:12,580 --> 00:58:11,269
much harder problem than you know then

1372
00:58:16,060 --> 00:58:12,590
science fiction right

1373
00:58:18,970 --> 00:58:16,070
make it out to be more like the Martian

1374
00:58:21,820 --> 00:58:18,980
you know where there's a million million

1375
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:21,830
ways to die every day in space and you

1376
00:58:24,940 --> 00:58:23,450
know it's just super hard so I don't

1377
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:24,950
think it's insurmountable I think it's

1378
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:26,690
quite doable I think it'll just take

1379
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:28,880
longer than you know we had thought you

1380
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:30,770
know when you know Verner von Braun

1381
00:58:35,860 --> 00:58:33,050
planned on you know getting to the moon

1382
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:35,870
and back by the end of the decade Matt

1383
00:58:41,020 --> 00:58:38,810
make Kennedy's goal you know he had

1384
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:41,030
grand plans of colonizing Mars in the

1385
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:44,090
70s and so on and you know it so this is

1386
00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:45,770
the other aspect the civilization has to

1387
00:58:51,820 --> 00:58:48,710
have the political will and the and the

1388
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:51,830
ending and the finances to do it because

1389
00:58:57,430 --> 00:58:55,130
it's expensive and difficult so you know

1390
00:58:59,830 --> 00:58:57,440
will he will humanity one day populate

1391
00:59:01,450 --> 00:58:59,840
the galaxies yes I think the galaxy is I

1392
00:59:03,340 --> 00:59:01,460
think so I don't think it's going to

1393
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:03,350
happen you know probably in the next

1394
00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:04,880
century but it could be you know the

1395
00:59:09,490 --> 00:59:07,520
next millennium millennium say uh-huh

1396
00:59:11,290 --> 00:59:09,500
okay hang on we're going to take a quick

1397
00:59:12,670 --> 00:59:11,300
break but just a little quick music

1398
00:59:28,299 --> 00:59:12,680
break and we'll be right back don't go

1399
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:31,160
all right we're on with Michael Shermer

1400
00:59:36,799 --> 00:59:34,410
we had a bunch of actual questions come

1401
00:59:41,690 --> 00:59:36,809
in through email and I thought I'd get

1402
00:59:43,990 --> 00:59:41,700
to a couple of them and let's see do you

1403
00:59:47,900 --> 00:59:44,000
think some people are as dogmatic about

1404
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:47,910
skepticism as they accuse others about

1405
00:59:53,690 --> 00:59:52,170
being of religion certainly and I've

1406
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:53,700
been accused of that myself

1407
00:59:58,970 --> 00:59:56,490
so yeah of course we're all human and

1408
01:00:00,799 --> 00:59:58,980
and and there's nothing special about

1409
01:00:02,089 --> 01:00:00,809
skepticism it's just it's just a

1410
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:02,099
scientific way of thinking about the

1411
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:04,319
world and scientists as people of course

1412
01:00:08,210 --> 01:00:05,970
er can be dogmatic about their own

1413
01:00:09,589 --> 01:00:08,220
theories but the beauty of science is

1414
01:00:11,299 --> 01:00:09,599
that it has built into it a

1415
01:00:14,089 --> 01:00:11,309
self-correcting mechanism that if you

1416
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:14,099
don't find your bios's and flaws and

1417
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:16,650
mistakes somebody else will and usually

1418
01:00:21,740 --> 01:00:18,240
with great Glee in a public forum

1419
01:00:23,450 --> 01:00:21,750
publish them and make their own bones in

1420
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:23,460
the scientific community by debunking

1421
01:00:27,620 --> 01:00:25,890
you and your silly ideas and so it's the

1422
01:00:29,870 --> 01:00:27,630
competitive nature of science that makes

1423
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:29,880
it special that sets it apart from other

1424
01:00:33,559 --> 01:00:31,650
ways of knowing about the world which

1425
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:33,569
mostly involves just intuition and

1426
01:00:38,990 --> 01:00:36,930
feelings and guesses and and so yeah

1427
01:00:41,049 --> 01:00:39,000
skeptics can you know can go get

1428
01:00:43,930 --> 01:00:41,059
passionate is just like anybody else and

1429
01:00:46,069 --> 01:00:43,940
so it's it's always important to say

1430
01:00:47,930 --> 01:00:46,079
okay first of all sometimes we're called

1431
01:00:50,089 --> 01:00:47,940
debunkers but let's be honest there's a

1432
01:00:51,620 --> 01:00:50,099
lot of bunk that needs debunking so in

1433
01:00:55,730 --> 01:00:51,630
that sense you know we're doing God's

1434
01:00:56,990 --> 01:00:55,740
work but on the other hand of course you

1435
01:00:59,870 --> 01:00:57,000
know we we have to keep an open mind

1436
01:01:02,480 --> 01:00:59,880
about things we truly don't know about I

1437
01:01:05,390 --> 01:01:02,490
think I think that comes up when when

1438
01:01:07,010 --> 01:01:05,400
something is just proclaimed without you

1439
01:01:09,770 --> 01:01:07,020
know something okay can be really

1440
01:01:12,170 --> 01:01:09,780
obvious that it's out there whatever but

1441
01:01:14,030 --> 01:01:12,180
for someone to just say well it's

1442
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:14,040
impossible UFOs have never visited

1443
01:01:19,069 --> 01:01:16,290
visited earth ever

1444
01:01:20,630 --> 01:01:19,079
I think that's debunking because you you

1445
01:01:22,700 --> 01:01:20,640
really have to look into it before you

1446
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:22,710
can actually make that Proclamation in

1447
01:01:27,559 --> 01:01:25,890
my opinion well certainly it's good to

1448
01:01:29,750 --> 01:01:27,569
be informed on any subject you're going

1449
01:01:33,970 --> 01:01:29,760
to pronounce opinions on

1450
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:33,980
say for sure but and and I don't know

1451
01:01:37,550 --> 01:01:35,970
people like Carl Sagan they took it

1452
01:01:39,470 --> 01:01:37,560
seriously you know didn't say it's

1453
01:01:41,210 --> 01:01:39,480
impossible I mean why would it be

1454
01:01:42,980 --> 01:01:41,220
impossible it you know this isn't like a

1455
01:01:45,170 --> 01:01:42,990
perpetual motion machine that violates

1456
01:01:47,090 --> 01:01:45,180
the second law of thermodynamics or you

1457
01:01:49,970 --> 01:01:47,100
know psychic power that you know it's

1458
01:01:51,380 --> 01:01:49,980
just just really impossible by the

1459
01:01:54,380 --> 01:01:51,390
knowing laws of nature

1460
01:01:57,200 --> 01:01:54,390
there's nothing about extraterrestrial

1461
01:01:59,140 --> 01:01:57,210
claims that violates any laws of course

1462
01:02:01,610 --> 01:01:59,150
they could be here they could come here

1463
01:02:03,980 --> 01:02:01,620
under the same principles that we want

1464
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:03,990
to go there wherever there is the moon

1465
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:07,410
Mars or whatever so you know with and

1466
01:02:10,190 --> 01:02:09,810
with enough advanced technology we could

1467
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:10,200
do it

1468
01:02:14,020 --> 01:02:12,510
and as I said lots of people have been

1469
01:02:16,370 --> 01:02:14,030
working on this that are smarter than me

1470
01:02:18,020 --> 01:02:16,380
and tell me it's quite doable

1471
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:18,030
you know without you know not that

1472
01:02:22,940 --> 01:02:19,890
Rockets use other forms of propulsion

1473
01:02:24,380 --> 01:02:22,950
and and you know and there's ways to get

1474
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:24,390
around the huge distances by

1475
01:02:26,660 --> 01:02:25,770
accelerating near the speed of light

1476
01:02:28,910 --> 01:02:26,670
that sort of thing

1477
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:28,920
so it's doable but the question is it

1478
01:02:32,270 --> 01:02:30,810
hasn't been done that's what we want to

1479
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:32,280
know are they are they here are they

1480
01:02:36,590 --> 01:02:34,290
visiting and again I think the evidence

1481
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:36,600
is too anecdotal it's too fraught with

1482
01:02:39,980 --> 01:02:37,530
human error

1483
01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:39,990
both perceptual error and cognitive

1484
01:02:44,870 --> 01:02:43,110
error to say conclusively yes we are

1485
01:02:47,900 --> 01:02:44,880
definitely being visited you know so

1486
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:47,910
when Leslie Keane says in her book and

1487
01:02:51,140 --> 01:02:49,530
and on your interview and so on that we

1488
01:02:52,940 --> 01:02:51,150
should you know we need to look at these

1489
01:02:54,530 --> 01:02:52,950
claims more seriously scientifically

1490
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,540
well who would disagree with that of

1491
01:02:58,340 --> 01:02:56,400
course yes we should but who's the we

1492
01:02:59,840 --> 01:02:58,350
you know I mean the federal government

1493
01:03:02,660 --> 01:02:59,850
it has only so much money and if you

1494
01:03:04,190 --> 01:03:02,670
mean by we if she means the you know

1495
01:03:06,110 --> 01:03:04,200
National Science Foundation or something

1496
01:03:07,850 --> 01:03:06,120
like that well the US government has

1497
01:03:10,100 --> 01:03:07,860
been involved investigating these things

1498
01:03:11,540 --> 01:03:10,110
decades ago and just concluded that

1499
01:03:14,060 --> 01:03:11,550
there wasn't enough to it to spend any

1500
01:03:16,250 --> 01:03:14,070
more money and there's you know other

1501
01:03:17,570 --> 01:03:16,260
projects that demand money and you know

1502
01:03:19,100 --> 01:03:17,580
there's only so much you can do but

1503
01:03:21,380 --> 01:03:19,110
there's plenty of private groups lots

1504
01:03:23,060 --> 01:03:21,390
and lots of private UFO groups so let

1505
01:03:25,430 --> 01:03:23,070
them do it I mean that's how it's that's

1506
01:03:26,690 --> 01:03:25,440
how it's done in all other areas you

1507
01:03:28,610 --> 01:03:26,700
know the Bigfoot people they make the

1508
01:03:29,810 --> 01:03:28,620
same complaint you know how come we're

1509
01:03:31,820 --> 01:03:29,820
you know there's not more serious

1510
01:03:34,190 --> 01:03:31,830
scientific investigations well there are

1511
01:03:36,770 --> 01:03:34,200
by private scientists but you know the

1512
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:36,780
the you know the NIH National Institutes

1513
01:03:39,860 --> 01:03:38,010
of Health they're not going to put any

1514
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:39,870
money into it because you know it's just

1515
01:03:43,610 --> 01:03:41,850
not how it works well I think the

1516
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:43,620
difference between Bigfoot

1517
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:47,090
and some object in the sky that could

1518
01:03:51,890 --> 01:03:49,250
potentially cause an air traffic

1519
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:51,900
disaster are two different things you

1520
01:03:56,540 --> 01:03:54,090
know and I I think you know I still

1521
01:03:58,520 --> 01:03:56,550
think that you know this is gonna sound

1522
01:04:01,970 --> 01:03:58,530
conspiratorial but I do believe that

1523
01:04:04,430 --> 01:04:01,980
when something is sound enough that the

1524
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:04,440
government is possibly looking into it

1525
01:04:10,010 --> 01:04:07,530
like there are some reports that were

1526
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:10,020
let's say John Greenwald was able to get

1527
01:04:16,010 --> 01:04:14,010
some NORAD reports can you hang on we

1528
01:04:18,230 --> 01:04:16,020
have a call coming in right now okay

1529
01:04:19,850 --> 01:04:18,240
caller please say your first name how

1530
01:04:23,390 --> 01:04:19,860
are you welcome to the show and pose

1531
01:04:25,790 --> 01:04:23,400
your question largeness been calling

1532
01:04:29,810 --> 01:04:25,800
again Sam let's just you sound better

1533
01:04:31,970 --> 01:04:29,820
this time yeah I was wondering with the

1534
01:04:34,820 --> 01:04:31,980
kind of leaning towards evidence that

1535
01:04:38,050 --> 01:04:34,830
can stir Mia is actually happening with

1536
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:38,060
comets bring bring organic material that

1537
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:41,370
couldn't you know a major event like a

1538
01:04:45,590 --> 01:04:42,960
supernova or something bring multiple

1539
01:04:48,140 --> 01:04:45,600
comets of the same organic material on

1540
01:04:50,060 --> 01:04:48,150
it and thus that's why we have some of

1541
01:04:51,860 --> 01:04:50,070
our human early type forms maybe

1542
01:04:54,340 --> 01:04:51,870
throughout the four regions of space

1543
01:04:56,630 --> 01:04:54,350
that would explain two arms two legs

1544
01:04:59,090 --> 01:04:56,640
because it came from the same type of

1545
01:05:01,610 --> 01:04:59,100
bacteria or whatever it was all these

1546
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:01,620
comments she has permanent are you

1547
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:04,650
saying like initial life that was spread

1548
01:05:08,660 --> 01:05:05,730
throughout the galaxy

1549
01:05:10,820 --> 01:05:08,670
right there may be a singular event that

1550
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:10,830
carried the same organisms hmm

1551
01:05:17,780 --> 01:05:13,170
interesting what do you say to that

1552
01:05:20,210 --> 01:05:17,790
Michael okay well I think that would

1553
01:05:21,860 --> 01:05:20,220
apply if it was something like DNA I

1554
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:21,870
mean once you if you start with

1555
01:05:25,370 --> 01:05:23,850
something simple as a cell or a virus

1556
01:05:26,990 --> 01:05:25,380
there's no reason why you're going to

1557
01:05:28,790 --> 01:05:27,000
end up with bipedalism there's nothing

1558
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:28,800
special about bipedalism effect it's

1559
01:05:33,230 --> 01:05:30,690
it's really not all that great as

1560
01:05:36,860 --> 01:05:33,240
evidenced by our bad knees and bad backs

1561
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:36,870
and so on Quadra peel ISM you know and

1562
01:05:42,170 --> 01:05:39,570
and the whole tetrapod for limbs as they

1563
01:05:45,890 --> 01:05:42,180
evolved from fish amphibians to you know

1564
01:05:48,260 --> 01:05:45,900
land dwelling mammals you know are

1565
01:05:52,070 --> 01:05:48,270
designed for a particular reason that is

1566
01:05:54,410 --> 01:05:52,080
is not that well-suited for the land in

1567
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:54,420
others there's no reason why that would

1568
01:05:57,590 --> 01:05:55,770
be the particular way it would come

1569
01:06:00,500 --> 01:05:57,600
about on another plan

1570
01:06:02,390 --> 01:06:00,510
so but but if if we found life on

1571
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:02,400
another planet that was also a double

1572
01:06:07,610 --> 01:06:05,250
helix that is the replicating molecules

1573
01:06:09,380 --> 01:06:07,620
or double helix like our DNA that would

1574
01:06:12,050 --> 01:06:09,390
be pretty suspicious the chances of that

1575
01:06:14,270 --> 01:06:12,060
happening either the laws of nature

1576
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:14,280
inevitably lead to that would be one

1577
01:06:19,430 --> 01:06:16,530
conclusion or we have a common origin

1578
01:06:20,690 --> 01:06:19,440
let's say we found life on Mars and it

1579
01:06:23,930 --> 01:06:20,700
was you know the same kind of

1580
01:06:25,820 --> 01:06:23,940
self-replicating molecules DNA double

1581
01:06:28,370 --> 01:06:25,830
helix that we have here that would be

1582
01:06:30,470 --> 01:06:28,380
strongly suspicious that that there's a

1583
01:06:32,810 --> 01:06:30,480
single origin of those two life-forms

1584
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:32,820
which is why Paul Davies proposes that

1585
01:06:38,990 --> 01:06:36,090
we look for light extraterrestrial life

1586
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:39,000
here on earth that is a second Genesis a

1587
01:06:44,540 --> 01:06:41,250
different kind of life-form of a

1588
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:44,550
life-form that's not based on DNA it has

1589
01:06:48,530 --> 01:06:46,770
some other self-replicating that that

1590
01:06:50,860 --> 01:06:48,540
would be an example of either a second

1591
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:50,870
Genesis on earth or an extraterrestrial

1592
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:54,480
panspermia type event so you know

1593
01:07:01,190 --> 01:06:57,090
doesn't like the octopus maybe not being

1594
01:07:03,260 --> 01:07:01,200
the firmly known you know not coming

1595
01:07:05,930 --> 01:07:03,270
from any known species before and I saw

1596
01:07:08,450 --> 01:07:05,940
a recent article I believe in science

1597
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:08,460
that said that the octopus didn't seem

1598
01:07:12,860 --> 01:07:10,170
to evolve from anything and seemed to be

1599
01:07:15,620 --> 01:07:12,870
a separate species of its own well

1600
01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:15,630
certainly a separate species but but no

1601
01:07:19,940 --> 01:07:17,760
no we know the origins of of octopi

1602
01:07:22,010 --> 01:07:19,950
they're just really unusual creatures

1603
01:07:24,230 --> 01:07:22,020
and apparently a lot smarter than we

1604
01:07:25,700 --> 01:07:24,240
previously thought they have a lot of

1605
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:25,710
their intelligence built throughout

1606
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:27,690
their whole body not in a particular

1607
01:07:31,250 --> 01:07:29,850
head unit like we do but spread

1608
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:31,260
throughout their tentacles

1609
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:32,930
you know the whole nervous system is

1610
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:35,130
it's more like a distributed

1611
01:07:38,900 --> 01:07:37,920
intelligence and that brings us back to

1612
01:07:40,490 --> 01:07:38,910
that previous question we were

1613
01:07:42,710 --> 01:07:40,500
discussing earlier about what life would

1614
01:07:44,630 --> 01:07:42,720
be like on another planet again we're

1615
01:07:47,510 --> 01:07:44,640
not just carbon chauvinist as Sagan said

1616
01:07:49,580 --> 01:07:47,520
or bipedal chauvinist like I said but

1617
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:49,590
yeah but even what what would

1618
01:07:54,380 --> 01:07:51,810
intelligence look like what why does it

1619
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:54,390
have to be a brain yeah why do you have

1620
01:08:00,470 --> 01:07:57,810
to have it all in one mass as you just

1621
01:08:01,850 --> 01:08:00,480
pointed out the octopus is smart and it

1622
01:08:03,470 --> 01:08:01,860
doesn't really have a brain anything

1623
01:08:05,990 --> 01:08:03,480
like ours that intelligence is

1624
01:08:08,330 --> 01:08:06,000
distributed through its its body you

1625
01:08:11,359 --> 01:08:08,340
know so maybe it's like that on on some

1626
01:08:13,279 --> 01:08:11,369
other planet sure you know the the thing

1627
01:08:15,289 --> 01:08:13,289
that comes up as if there are a lot of

1628
01:08:17,329 --> 01:08:15,299
planets in the Goldilocks zone that have

1629
01:08:20,419 --> 01:08:17,339
similar properties or same distance from

1630
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:20,429
the Sun and are bombarded through plans

1631
01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:22,290
permeate through with the same type of

1632
01:08:27,050 --> 01:08:25,049
organic or DNA material then you might

1633
01:08:30,470 --> 01:08:27,060
have some other characteristics between

1634
01:08:32,990 --> 01:08:30,480
those species that at all correct that's

1635
01:08:37,789 --> 01:08:33,000
right so that's the idea of a convergent

1636
01:08:39,079 --> 01:08:37,799
evolution you know there there's that

1637
01:08:42,919 --> 01:08:39,089
there's certain similarities between

1638
01:08:45,079 --> 01:08:42,929
species because of their ancestry so

1639
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:45,089
like I mentioned the tetrapod for limb

1640
01:08:49,129 --> 01:08:47,489
you know our arm your arm that you know

1641
01:08:51,050 --> 01:08:49,139
has the single bone and then double

1642
01:08:52,849 --> 01:08:51,060
bones the ulnar and radius and then the

1643
01:08:55,329 --> 01:08:52,859
carpals metacarpals and phalanges your

1644
01:08:58,399 --> 01:08:55,339
wrist bone and and hand and finger bones

1645
01:09:00,229 --> 01:08:58,409
those are actually quite similar to lots

1646
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:00,239
of other species including my dog who's

1647
01:09:06,229 --> 01:09:04,770
barking at the moment he's not an

1648
01:09:10,459 --> 01:09:06,239
extraterrestrial but he thinks he is

1649
01:09:14,539 --> 01:09:10,469
sometimes I'm moving the other room here

1650
01:09:16,249 --> 01:09:14,549
the you know so there's one reason

1651
01:09:18,229 --> 01:09:16,259
that's one reason why species tend to

1652
01:09:20,419 --> 01:09:18,239
look alike because they have common

1653
01:09:22,309 --> 01:09:20,429
ancestors the other reason is is they

1654
01:09:24,050 --> 01:09:22,319
they evolved in a similar environment so

1655
01:09:25,340 --> 01:09:24,060
I mentioned that you know if you want to

1656
01:09:28,550 --> 01:09:25,350
fly in the air you have to have

1657
01:09:30,349 --> 01:09:28,560
something like a wing it's aerodynamic

1658
01:09:32,629 --> 01:09:30,359
and you know and so on you have to have

1659
01:09:35,180 --> 01:09:32,639
bones that are super lightweight and you

1660
01:09:38,059 --> 01:09:35,190
know so bats and pterodactyls and birds

1661
01:09:41,209 --> 01:09:38,069
no relationship at all except for way

1662
01:09:43,010 --> 01:09:41,219
way back evolutionarily wise but have

1663
01:09:45,169 --> 01:09:43,020
similar wing structures simply because

1664
01:09:47,959 --> 01:09:45,179
that's what you need to fly and fish all

1665
01:09:50,349 --> 01:09:47,969
have fusiform bodies as do marine

1666
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:50,359
mammals even though they're not related

1667
01:09:54,050 --> 01:09:52,650
evolutionarily they look alike because

1668
01:09:56,979 --> 01:09:54,060
that's what you have to look like to

1669
01:09:59,959 --> 01:09:56,989
move through water with any speed at all

1670
01:10:02,120 --> 01:09:59,969
so yeah you know again if a planet

1671
01:10:03,919 --> 01:10:02,130
another planet had water and there were

1672
01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:03,929
creatures in it they're gonna have to

1673
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:05,840
look something like fish if they move

1674
01:10:10,459 --> 01:10:08,370
alright then well thanks so much up

1675
01:10:12,410 --> 01:10:10,469
Michael I feel like we're gonna run out

1676
01:10:14,090 --> 01:10:12,420
of time it's and you know I know we have

1677
01:10:15,979 --> 01:10:14,100
45 minutes left but it seems like I've

1678
01:10:18,229 --> 01:10:15,989
got a million questions I want to ask

1679
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:18,239
you and one of the things up I heard you

1680
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:19,650
bring up a Roswell of course I want to

1681
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:23,010
talk about that but also I want to talk

1682
01:10:29,330 --> 01:10:25,290
about I I produce

1683
01:10:32,350 --> 01:10:29,340
on another show of and I also Seth

1684
01:10:35,630 --> 01:10:32,360
Shostak also said about the observer

1685
01:10:37,940 --> 01:10:35,640
doesn't hold up but I want to just tell

1686
01:10:40,370 --> 01:10:37,950
you quickly about my sighting and just I

1687
01:10:44,480 --> 01:10:40,380
want you to tell me that I'm crazy for

1688
01:10:47,270 --> 01:10:44,490
seeing what I did and I I'm someone who

1689
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:47,280
in my field of fine arts and antiques I

1690
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:49,530
also a fennec eight documents I

1691
01:10:54,530 --> 01:10:52,530
authenticate paintings so I'm I really

1692
01:10:57,890 --> 01:10:54,540
really pay attention when I'm looking at

1693
01:10:59,930 --> 01:10:57,900
something and what had happened was back

1694
01:11:02,660 --> 01:10:59,940
in 2006 I was out your way I was in

1695
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:02,670
Carmel Valley sitting in a hot tub I was

1696
01:11:06,620 --> 01:11:04,050
not drinking course that's the first

1697
01:11:08,780 --> 01:11:06,630
thing someone asked I wasn't drinking on

1698
01:11:11,870 --> 01:11:08,790
any substance at all it was dusk and

1699
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:11,880
this disc came right over my head it

1700
01:11:18,290 --> 01:11:14,450
probably may be a thousand feet up

1701
01:11:21,440 --> 01:11:18,300
perfectly round shaped like a silver

1702
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:21,450
dollar with like a bluish glow and the

1703
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:23,250
thing that astonished me the most about

1704
01:11:27,170 --> 01:11:24,930
the whole situation was that there was

1705
01:11:30,050 --> 01:11:27,180
absolutely no sound at all and it

1706
01:11:31,850 --> 01:11:30,060
stopped it it can I wouldn't want to

1707
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:31,860
guess the how fast it was going wasn't

1708
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:34,170
going super fast but it stopped and then

1709
01:11:38,510 --> 01:11:36,210
it made a perfect 45-degree angle out

1710
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:38,520
toward Monterey I called the police

1711
01:11:42,110 --> 01:11:39,930
department I didn't know how to report

1712
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:42,120
it and all that but I just want I want

1713
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:45,330
to hear how you would think something

1714
01:11:51,770 --> 01:11:48,090
like that could be explained in an in a

1715
01:11:53,350 --> 01:11:51,780
prosaic way oh boy well you know it's

1716
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:53,360
hard to say because I wasn't there and

1717
01:11:57,740 --> 01:11:56,610
you know I'd like to have seen it so you

1718
01:11:59,930 --> 01:11:57,750
think it's around not trying

1719
01:12:03,260 --> 01:11:59,940
triangular-shaped yeah there's a lot of

1720
01:12:05,170 --> 01:12:03,270
triangle UFOs being reported right now

1721
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:05,180
but this one was the old-fashioned I

1722
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:08,730
guess the flying saucer if you will yeah

1723
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:10,410
and that's what really got me into this

1724
01:12:15,530 --> 01:12:12,210
you know doing this show and everything

1725
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:15,540
was yep yep I don't know you know maybe

1726
01:12:19,310 --> 01:12:17,850
there's one explanation I don't know

1727
01:12:21,860 --> 01:12:19,320
about for yours but for these kinds of

1728
01:12:23,540 --> 01:12:21,870
things is experimental aircraft either

1729
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:23,550
private experimental aircraft or

1730
01:12:27,140 --> 01:12:25,770
government you know we didn't know what

1731
01:12:29,930 --> 01:12:27,150
this we didn't know about the u-2 spy

1732
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:29,940
plane until you know you're the one got

1733
01:12:34,430 --> 01:12:32,970
shot down and we didn't know about the

1734
01:12:36,440 --> 01:12:34,440
stealth bomber so that was made public

1735
01:12:38,850 --> 01:12:36,450
now we see I see it every year flies

1736
01:12:40,229 --> 01:12:38,860
over my house on January 1st

1737
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:40,239
over the Rose Parade and I live in

1738
01:12:45,030 --> 01:12:43,449
Pasadena and you know so that always oh

1739
01:12:46,770 --> 01:12:45,040
these things always make me wonder well

1740
01:12:48,330 --> 01:12:46,780
what else have they got that they if

1741
01:12:50,070 --> 01:12:48,340
they're flying now that we don't know

1742
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:50,080
about that's you know super cool

1743
01:12:54,870 --> 01:12:52,330
technology it's stealthy it's this it's

1744
01:12:56,490 --> 01:12:54,880
that and you know they're had there were

1745
01:12:59,250 --> 01:12:56,500
experiments in the 50s with you know

1746
01:13:01,050 --> 01:12:59,260
saucer-shaped airplanes and so on they

1747
01:13:03,270 --> 01:13:01,060
never became commercial but they're

1748
01:13:04,229 --> 01:13:03,280
examples you can see them online you

1749
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:04,239
know maybe it was something like that

1750
01:13:08,790 --> 01:13:05,650
I don't know you know it's just hard to

1751
01:13:10,649 --> 01:13:08,800
say I mean the propulsion part of it is

1752
01:13:13,050 --> 01:13:10,659
what really baffled me the most like how

1753
01:13:15,300 --> 01:13:13,060
could it move without making any sound

1754
01:13:16,649 --> 01:13:15,310
at all if we figured that out I've heard

1755
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:16,659
you say before that you know the

1756
01:13:20,100 --> 01:13:18,250
government can't keep secrets it seems

1757
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:20,110
like that technology would be out there

1758
01:13:25,979 --> 01:13:22,810
well yeah I'm gonna modify that I used

1759
01:13:29,070 --> 01:13:25,989
to say that it's true but when I read

1760
01:13:31,620 --> 01:13:29,080
Ben Rich's book about the skunk works

1761
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:31,630
uh-huh developed the u-2 spy plane and

1762
01:13:36,780 --> 01:13:34,690
the and the sr-71 blackbird in Burbank

1763
01:13:38,370 --> 01:13:36,790
you know that's right in LA you know

1764
01:13:40,709 --> 01:13:38,380
it's like none of us knew about that so

1765
01:13:41,910 --> 01:13:40,719
governments can keep secrets and not

1766
01:13:43,140 --> 01:13:41,920
necessarily very good about it

1767
01:13:46,379 --> 01:13:43,150
particularly when you have things like

1768
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:46,389
WikiLeaks and and you know Snowden and

1769
01:13:50,580 --> 01:13:48,250
the NSA and all that we we eventually do

1770
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:50,590
find out about these things so it could

1771
01:13:52,979 --> 01:13:51,610
be you know experimental aircraft

1772
01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:52,989
something like that you know when the

1773
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:55,600
stealth bomber is coming at you it is

1774
01:13:58,890 --> 01:13:57,010
silent you can't hear it

1775
01:14:01,649 --> 01:13:58,900
when it goes over and past then you hear

1776
01:14:03,149 --> 01:14:01,659
the the engines but you know but I mean

1777
01:14:05,550 --> 01:14:03,159
you describe it as moving away from you

1778
01:14:07,290 --> 01:14:05,560
from Carmel Valley out to Monterey I

1779
01:14:10,649 --> 01:14:07,300
know that area very well I used to

1780
01:14:13,050 --> 01:14:10,659
bicycle up there all the time and yeah

1781
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:13,060
so you know I don't know I'm trying to

1782
01:14:16,950 --> 01:14:15,010
remember if there's any Air Force bases

1783
01:14:21,390 --> 01:14:16,960
near there's a Navy base right in

1784
01:14:23,490 --> 01:14:21,400
Monterey yeah that's okay yeah yeah all

1785
01:14:24,930 --> 01:14:23,500
right well here's so I would say you're

1786
01:14:27,030 --> 01:14:24,940
not crazy I don't think you were

1787
01:14:30,030 --> 01:14:27,040
hallucinating in the hot tub I seriously

1788
01:14:32,340 --> 01:14:30,040
doubt that as an explanation I think

1789
01:14:34,410 --> 01:14:32,350
that's more for you know like abduction

1790
01:14:36,780 --> 01:14:34,420
experiences I think most most the time

1791
01:14:38,939 --> 01:14:36,790
when people see something that they call

1792
01:14:40,590 --> 01:14:38,949
a UFO it's actually something in the in

1793
01:14:44,340 --> 01:14:40,600
the atmosphere it's in space it's

1794
01:14:45,930 --> 01:14:44,350
whatever you know I got a I got admit I

1795
01:14:47,879 --> 01:14:45,940
was on the fence when I first served the

1796
01:14:50,609 --> 01:14:47,889
show about abduction accounts totally on

1797
01:14:52,810 --> 01:14:50,619
the fence about it and and you know to

1798
01:14:55,780 --> 01:14:52,820
be honest I didn't even believe they

1799
01:14:58,649 --> 01:14:55,790
they were possible or happened or a part

1800
01:15:03,729 --> 01:14:58,659
of reality or anything like that but

1801
01:15:06,939 --> 01:15:03,739
then I met Travis Walton and I really I

1802
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:06,949
don't have any doubts about Travis

1803
01:15:11,890 --> 01:15:09,290
Walton when I'm speaking to a Maitai and

1804
01:15:13,689 --> 01:15:11,900
his story I just wondered if you ever

1805
01:15:16,060 --> 01:15:13,699
looked into that particular case I have

1806
01:15:18,490 --> 01:15:16,070
absolutely I've met him he and I were on

1807
01:15:21,339 --> 01:15:18,500
a TV show together and I spent some time

1808
01:15:24,339 --> 01:15:21,349
with him and one yes I concur he's a

1809
01:15:26,859 --> 01:15:24,349
super nice guy comes off very reasonable

1810
01:15:29,770 --> 01:15:26,869
and and seems like a thoughtful guy

1811
01:15:30,939 --> 01:15:29,780
doesn't seem crazy or poor or deceptive

1812
01:15:33,370 --> 01:15:30,949
or anything like that on the other hand

1813
01:15:34,689 --> 01:15:33,380
I don't buy a story I just don't I just

1814
01:15:36,490 --> 01:15:34,699
don't buy it I you know I don't know if

1815
01:15:39,339 --> 01:15:36,500
he's making it up or if he's you know

1816
01:15:41,169 --> 01:15:39,349
confabulated or or misremember I don't

1817
01:15:43,569 --> 01:15:41,179
know I you know it's hard to say what's

1818
01:15:44,859 --> 01:15:43,579
inside somebody's head but I just don't

1819
01:15:46,660 --> 01:15:44,869
buy the story I mean there's too many

1820
01:15:49,510 --> 01:15:46,670
holes in it you know the pressure to get

1821
01:15:52,479 --> 01:15:49,520
the job done he was late and you know

1822
01:15:53,979 --> 01:15:52,489
and you know the inconsistencies and the

1823
01:15:55,629 --> 01:15:53,989
stories with you know some of the

1824
01:15:58,660 --> 01:15:55,639
buddies and other people that try to

1825
01:16:00,010 --> 01:15:58,670
confirm it including his employers you

1826
01:16:01,660 --> 01:16:00,020
know there was there's too many holes in

1827
01:16:03,580 --> 01:16:01,670
it for me I I think there was something

1828
01:16:05,169 --> 01:16:03,590
else going on there I had to call

1829
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:05,179
somebody a liar and say well he made it

1830
01:16:08,979 --> 01:16:07,489
up but you know I think I don't know

1831
01:16:10,770 --> 01:16:08,989
what the right way to say it is he

1832
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:10,780
confabulate it or you know I don't know

1833
01:16:15,850 --> 01:16:13,730
well you know one of the things I don't

1834
01:16:18,459 --> 01:16:15,860
know how deeply you spoke to him but one

1835
01:16:20,500 --> 01:16:18,469
of the things I really really got from

1836
01:16:22,589 --> 01:16:20,510
him is he wished that it never happened

1837
01:16:26,140 --> 01:16:22,599
to him and I really believe that's

1838
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:26,150
that's true also what about the five

1839
01:16:31,180 --> 01:16:28,489
days he was missing them looking for him

1840
01:16:35,350 --> 01:16:31,190
do you think he was just hiding

1841
01:16:37,419 --> 01:16:35,360
somewhere what woody maybe yeah you know

1842
01:16:39,609 --> 01:16:37,429
it's like people are we surprised that

1843
01:16:41,709 --> 01:16:39,619
people make stuff up or hide or do

1844
01:16:44,109 --> 01:16:41,719
whatever but that it happens all the

1845
01:16:45,729 --> 01:16:44,119
time I mean people just make stuff up

1846
01:16:48,010 --> 01:16:45,739
they do they lie all the time to get

1847
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:48,020
caught all the time and you have only to

1848
01:16:51,850 --> 01:16:49,610
look at you know political history of

1849
01:16:54,490 --> 01:16:51,860
America to know that and and and those

1850
01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:54,500
are professionals you know but in other

1851
01:16:58,720 --> 01:16:56,210
walks of life yeah people just make

1852
01:17:01,330 --> 01:16:58,730
stuff up it's been one of the sort of

1853
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:01,340
enlightened discoveries I've made by

1854
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:03,650
just dint of getting older and more

1855
01:17:06,990 --> 01:17:05,170
experienced in

1856
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:07,000
dealing with people that cannot be

1857
01:17:11,220 --> 01:17:09,010
people just lie people you know people

1858
01:17:13,500 --> 01:17:11,230
that you trust they just look you right

1859
01:17:15,540 --> 01:17:13,510
in the eye and they lie and it's amazing

1860
01:17:17,570 --> 01:17:15,550
to me but it's true and we know from the

1861
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:17,580
research particularly like by Dan Ariely

1862
01:17:24,510 --> 01:17:21,120
at Duke that you know people lie about

1863
01:17:26,100 --> 01:17:24,520
10 to 15 percent now that is to say if

1864
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:26,110
you give them these tasks in which they

1865
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:27,730
have to turn in a little answer sheet

1866
01:17:30,570 --> 01:17:28,690
and they get paid for the number of

1867
01:17:33,870 --> 01:17:30,580
correct answers let's - Duke who kind of

1868
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:33,880
like puzzle you know which it's

1869
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:35,410
impossible to get the number that they

1870
01:17:38,790 --> 01:17:37,090
say that they get you know they but they

1871
01:17:40,530 --> 01:17:38,800
don't make huge lies they don't like

1872
01:17:42,390 --> 01:17:40,540
like lie a hundred percent you know

1873
01:17:43,950 --> 01:17:42,400
double the the number that they got

1874
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:43,960
right they don't they lie about 10 to 15

1875
01:17:48,090 --> 01:17:46,210
percent we know from studies on personal

1876
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:48,100
ads that people put on dating sites you

1877
01:17:52,350 --> 01:17:49,570
know everybody exaggerates their height

1878
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:52,360
they their weight their income you know

1879
01:17:56,970 --> 01:17:54,370
you know various things about 10 or 15

1880
01:17:58,919 --> 01:17:56,980
percent so people just we all lie we all

1881
01:18:01,470 --> 01:17:58,929
lie a lot regularly pretty much daily

1882
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:01,480
and then you know and then you know

1883
01:18:04,830 --> 01:18:03,130
sometimes people just make up whoppers

1884
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:04,840
there's you know what about what about

1885
01:18:11,970 --> 01:18:07,410
the polygraph test that everyone passed

1886
01:18:13,380 --> 01:18:11,980
one was well neutral yeah well first of

1887
01:18:14,340 --> 01:18:13,390
all we I'm skeptical of the polygraph

1888
01:18:15,959 --> 01:18:14,350
entirely

1889
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:15,969
you know I've we've debunked that and

1890
01:18:19,020 --> 01:18:17,290
skeptic I've done TV shows in the

1891
01:18:20,430 --> 01:18:19,030
polygraph I can tell your listeners how

1892
01:18:21,540 --> 01:18:20,440
to beat the polygraph it's pretty easy

1893
01:18:23,580 --> 01:18:21,550
to do

1894
01:18:25,350 --> 01:18:23,590
because yeah but you have to know how to

1895
01:18:29,189 --> 01:18:25,360
beat it you know these are these are

1896
01:18:32,090 --> 01:18:29,199
just kids I don't know I think we're

1897
01:18:34,530 --> 01:18:32,100
going to agree to disagree on Travis I I

1898
01:18:36,300 --> 01:18:34,540
would someone up on the message board

1899
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:36,310
one to know why you think he was lying

1900
01:18:42,810 --> 01:18:38,170
what what part made you think he was

1901
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:42,820
lying well you know the motives for

1902
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:44,530
lying were there's late for the job

1903
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:46,810
wasn't going to get paid and so on but

1904
01:18:50,939 --> 01:18:49,090
more to the point you know just the

1905
01:18:53,310 --> 01:18:50,949
improbability of what it is he says

1906
01:18:55,950 --> 01:18:53,320
happened you know it's just it's an

1907
01:19:00,570 --> 01:18:55,960
extraordinary claim and the evidence was

1908
01:19:02,250 --> 01:19:00,580
in my opinion not extraordinary well it

1909
01:19:05,100 --> 01:19:02,260
just seemed like there's an awful lot on

1910
01:19:07,830 --> 01:19:05,110
the line just for being late for work

1911
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:07,840
well that's true but you know there's a

1912
01:19:11,250 --> 01:19:09,370
lot of motives people have that are not

1913
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:11,260
obvious as well I mean why would it

1914
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:13,330
alien an abductee make up a story about

1915
01:19:17,130 --> 01:19:14,770
that because they're it's embarrassing

1916
01:19:18,930 --> 01:19:17,140
or whatever well but but people get a

1917
01:19:19,230 --> 01:19:18,940
lot of value out of the attention that

1918
01:19:25,770 --> 01:19:19,240
they

1919
01:19:27,450 --> 01:19:25,780
has it's not the money we wrote a book

1920
01:19:28,950 --> 01:19:27,460
and made a movie made a lot of money I

1921
01:19:31,830 --> 01:19:28,960
don't I really don't think that's the

1922
01:19:33,900 --> 01:19:31,840
motive that most people have it's it's

1923
01:19:37,350 --> 01:19:33,910
just you know this I don't know it's the

1924
01:19:38,730 --> 01:19:37,360
fantasy it's like when I met together

1925
01:19:40,740 --> 01:19:38,740
wrote communion

1926
01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:40,750
you know Whitley cerebral yeah Willy's

1927
01:19:44,220 --> 01:19:42,490
Reaper yeah I met him on Bill Maher so

1928
01:19:46,230 --> 01:19:44,230
actually the old show politically

1929
01:19:48,660 --> 01:19:46,240
incorrect back in the late 90s we were

1930
01:19:51,060 --> 01:19:48,670
both on and in the greenroom and he

1931
01:19:53,010 --> 01:19:51,070
again seemed like a super nice guy

1932
01:19:54,690 --> 01:19:53,020
and you know not the kind of guy that

1933
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:54,700
would make stuff up or whatever but you

1934
01:19:58,740 --> 01:19:56,650
know we got another call coming and hang

1935
01:20:01,920 --> 01:19:58,750
on just a minute please

1936
01:20:03,960 --> 01:20:01,930
I'm not done with Travis either hello

1937
01:20:06,780 --> 01:20:03,970
caller please identify yourself and pose

1938
01:20:11,010 --> 01:20:06,790
a question hi my name is Peggy from Las

1939
01:20:14,130 --> 01:20:11,020
Vegas hey Peggy how are you I'm good

1940
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:14,140
good I'm mad now I want to talk to mr.

1941
01:20:19,020 --> 01:20:14,890
Shermer

1942
01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:19,030
all right you do that hi Michael hi

1943
01:20:22,500 --> 01:20:19,530
there

1944
01:20:24,930 --> 01:20:22,510
Michael I think I'm old and I'm cranky

1945
01:20:27,410 --> 01:20:24,940
so I might come across crankier than I

1946
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:27,420
actually a.m.

1947
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:32,530
probably not what you say although you

1948
01:20:35,730 --> 01:20:34,090
know it's defending you at first and I

1949
01:20:38,100 --> 01:20:35,740
think there's a lot of Merit in your

1950
01:20:44,510 --> 01:20:38,110
argument but as the time goes on you

1951
01:20:49,230 --> 01:20:44,520
begin to kind of adapt a adopt a

1952
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:49,240
superior superiority tone and pretty

1953
01:20:56,730 --> 01:20:52,570
much start debunking debunking the

1954
01:20:58,350 --> 01:20:56,740
dunking debunking almost like here's

1955
01:21:01,050 --> 01:20:58,360
what I'm hearing I don't want to believe

1956
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:01,060
in this so I'm not even going to listen

1957
01:21:07,470 --> 01:21:02,530
to it I'm just going to reach for any

1958
01:21:11,580 --> 01:21:07,480
excuse I can possibly think of to show

1959
01:21:15,870 --> 01:21:11,590
how this cannot be true well I'm hit

1960
01:21:20,490 --> 01:21:15,880
I've had sleep paralysis my whole life

1961
01:21:22,410 --> 01:21:20,500
I'm very old I've never seen aliens okay

1962
01:21:24,390 --> 01:21:22,420
yeah well not everybody does what have

1963
01:21:28,830 --> 01:21:24,400
you what what is your sense presents

1964
01:21:31,110 --> 01:21:28,840
been what did my what well what was your

1965
01:21:31,830 --> 01:21:31,120
experience in sleep paralysis what did

1966
01:21:33,120 --> 01:21:31,840
you experience

1967
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:33,130
oh I just

1968
01:21:40,740 --> 01:21:38,770
no that's all yeah case but some people

1969
01:21:43,020 --> 01:21:40,750
have more than that they report I

1970
01:21:47,820 --> 01:21:43,030
understand I understand that but I don't

1971
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:47,830
think you can write off all alien I'm

1972
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:49,810
sure some of the people are crazy some

1973
01:21:58,800 --> 01:21:55,650
of the people have sleep paralysis pee

1974
01:22:01,260 --> 01:21:58,810
are you even open to the possibility

1975
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:01,270
that any of these things happened if you

1976
01:22:07,500 --> 01:22:04,330
don't sound like you are well well when

1977
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:07,510
our hosts just explained his UFO

1978
01:22:12,270 --> 01:22:09,810
sighting experience I said I don't know

1979
01:22:14,820 --> 01:22:12,280
no you did say you didn't know but you

1980
01:22:16,980 --> 01:22:14,830
came up with the fact that stealth

1981
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:16,990
bombers don't make any noise well he

1982
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:19,930
asked the host asked what would be a

1983
01:22:25,770 --> 01:22:22,570
possible prison explanation and I gave

1984
01:22:27,870 --> 01:22:25,780
one I don't have any is there anything

1985
01:22:31,830 --> 01:22:27,880
that piques your interest in the UFO

1986
01:22:32,730 --> 01:22:31,840
field any sightings well I think Roswell

1987
01:22:35,670 --> 01:22:32,740
is one of the more interesting ones

1988
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:35,680
because it didn't become Roswell until

1989
01:22:42,450 --> 01:22:39,730
the 1980s you know in in the in the 70s

1990
01:22:44,820 --> 01:22:42,460
there would say in the 60s there was a

1991
01:22:46,350 --> 01:22:44,830
study published about them I was just

1992
01:22:48,600 --> 01:22:46,360
say in the 50s there was study published

1993
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:48,610
about the most prominent sightings of

1994
01:22:55,770 --> 01:22:52,810
the 1940s and the top500 and Roswell

1995
01:22:57,660 --> 01:22:55,780
wasn't even on the list and so winded

1996
01:23:01,650 --> 01:22:57,670
Roswell become Roswell and the answer is

1997
01:23:04,440 --> 01:23:01,660
after a film was made based on a

1998
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:04,450
best-selling book right right and so it

1999
01:23:07,890 --> 01:23:06,130
really the Roswell story is not about

2000
01:23:09,990 --> 01:23:07,900
aliens an extraterrestrial it's about

2001
01:23:11,700 --> 01:23:10,000
myth-making it's about how stories take

2002
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:11,710
on a life of their own and how people

2003
01:23:18,060 --> 01:23:14,530
add to the story and you're in your mind

2004
01:23:20,570 --> 01:23:18,070
it's a myth oh yes absolutely because we

2005
01:23:24,690 --> 01:23:20,580
know what what it was it was a hit

2006
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:24,700
Oh Peggy I'm gonna take over from here

2007
01:23:30,090 --> 01:23:26,970
because I do want to talk about Roswell

2008
01:23:31,230 --> 01:23:30,100
alright okay fine thanks for the call

2009
01:23:34,830 --> 01:23:31,240
okay bye

2010
01:23:36,660 --> 01:23:34,840
so I I have I have my opinions on

2011
01:23:39,330 --> 01:23:36,670
Roswell and of course I could have let

2012
01:23:42,510 --> 01:23:39,340
Peggy you know on but I I do want to

2013
01:23:44,790 --> 01:23:42,520
hear your side of it and I'll start out

2014
01:23:46,940 --> 01:23:44,800
by saying this why would the Army Air

2015
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:46,950
Force post the story that they

2016
01:23:57,110 --> 01:23:50,610
posted saying that they captured a disk

2017
01:23:59,450 --> 01:23:57,120
or a flying saucer right well I mean

2018
01:24:02,420 --> 01:23:59,460
again if Roswell is such a big thing how

2019
01:24:04,100 --> 01:24:02,430
come it was not a big thing until you

2020
01:24:06,980 --> 01:24:04,110
know until the 1980s

2021
01:24:09,710 --> 01:24:06,990
okay I'll address that from what I know

2022
01:24:11,780 --> 01:24:09,720
is this was right after World War two

2023
01:24:14,150 --> 01:24:11,790
everyone really respected the government

2024
01:24:17,210 --> 01:24:14,160
we won the war blah blah blah they paid

2025
01:24:20,510 --> 01:24:17,220
attention if someone said do not talk

2026
01:24:22,940 --> 01:24:20,520
about it they kept their word and so

2027
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:22,950
many people once the cat was let out of

2028
01:24:28,220 --> 01:24:25,410
the bag in the early 80s late 70s early

2029
01:24:30,950 --> 01:24:28,230
80s whenever it was then you know people

2030
01:24:34,430 --> 01:24:30,960
set up other well this was one account

2031
01:24:38,570 --> 01:24:34,440
one person that was involved in you know

2032
01:24:42,230 --> 01:24:38,580
the on the plane bringing the pieces

2033
01:24:44,180 --> 01:24:42,240
over to Wright Field said yes this

2034
01:24:45,650 --> 01:24:44,190
really did happen and you know I guess I

2035
01:24:47,570 --> 01:24:45,660
can not talk about it because other

2036
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:47,580
people are talking about it

2037
01:24:51,440 --> 01:24:50,250
so they were I think people respected

2038
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:51,450
the government more and listened to them

2039
01:24:55,760 --> 01:24:52,850
when they said keep your mouth shut

2040
01:24:58,490 --> 01:24:55,770
yes well here's I found the the

2041
01:25:01,310 --> 01:24:58,500
reference on that 1967 you apologist Ted

2042
01:25:05,420 --> 01:25:01,320
glyco published report on the UFO wave

2043
01:25:06,650 --> 01:25:05,430
of 1947 he listed 843 UFO sightings

2044
01:25:09,230 --> 01:25:06,660
carried by the news media

2045
01:25:11,300 --> 01:25:09,240
Roswell didn't even make the list no

2046
01:25:14,030 --> 01:25:11,310
crash debris no alien bodies no

2047
01:25:15,860 --> 01:25:14,040
eyewitnesses no conspiracies Roswell

2048
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:15,870
began in 1980 with a National Inquirer

2049
01:25:20,150 --> 01:25:17,730
story so I don't think instead of

2050
01:25:21,650 --> 01:25:20,160
government cover-up I think it was

2051
01:25:23,210 --> 01:25:21,660
nothing it was no one thought much about

2052
01:25:25,250 --> 01:25:23,220
it because it was much to do about

2053
01:25:27,350 --> 01:25:25,260
nothing you know it was just crash

2054
01:25:29,630 --> 01:25:27,360
debris from a high-altitude surveillance

2055
01:25:32,420 --> 01:25:29,640
balloon listening for acoustic

2056
01:25:35,060 --> 01:25:32,430
signatures of Soviet nuclear exhale

2057
01:25:37,220 --> 01:25:35,070
titude test explosions okay then why

2058
01:25:39,770 --> 01:25:37,230
would the why would the Army say that

2059
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:39,780
they captured a disc I mean these are

2060
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:42,090
people that handled well the the nuclear

2061
01:25:48,250 --> 01:25:45,690
weapons were on the airbase that you

2062
01:25:50,660 --> 01:25:48,260
know I mean the highest I would think

2063
01:25:52,580 --> 01:25:50,670
you know people guarding these type of

2064
01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:52,590
weapons and things like that why would

2065
01:25:56,990 --> 01:25:54,330
they actually go out on a limb and say

2066
01:26:00,620 --> 01:25:57,000
that well okay first of all in you know

2067
01:26:03,050 --> 01:26:00,630
in the 1995 and 97 reports issued by

2068
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:03,060
the Pentagon that the the the the disc

2069
01:26:06,820 --> 01:26:04,770
story came from flying you know

2070
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:06,830
experimental disc flying disc

2071
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:09,090
technologies that the Air Force was

2072
01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:11,760
testing and then the bodies came from

2073
01:26:15,470 --> 01:26:14,130
these you know at the bra morphic

2074
01:26:18,260 --> 01:26:15,480
dummies that they were heaving out of

2075
01:26:19,700 --> 01:26:18,270
these high-altitude balloons testing you

2076
01:26:21,350 --> 01:26:19,710
know what what it's like to jump out of

2077
01:26:23,450 --> 01:26:21,360
a hundred thousand from a hundred

2078
01:26:24,379 --> 01:26:23,460
thousand feet and then you know so in

2079
01:26:26,300 --> 01:26:24,389
other words they piece together a

2080
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:26,310
plausible story of how the little

2081
01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:27,810
components came together over the

2082
01:26:34,340 --> 01:26:30,210
decades to form the myth that you know

2083
01:26:36,550 --> 01:26:34,350
the myth of Roswell again it was nothing

2084
01:26:40,580 --> 01:26:36,560
in 1947 no one thought twice about it

2085
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:40,590
okay but okay first of all I still don't

2086
01:26:44,870 --> 01:26:42,330
really have a clear answer on why they

2087
01:26:47,810 --> 01:26:44,880
would say they captured a disc Saturn

2088
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:47,820
yeah governments do live government

2089
01:26:52,640 --> 01:26:50,130
yeah but why would they lie I mean they

2090
01:26:54,590 --> 01:26:52,650
didn't Roswell as a small town they

2091
01:26:56,060 --> 01:26:54,600
didn't have to say anything basically no

2092
01:26:58,490 --> 01:26:56,070
one had to put anything in the paper but

2093
01:27:00,860 --> 01:26:58,500
they did the other thing about the

2094
01:27:04,189 --> 01:27:00,870
dummies those came out five years after

2095
01:27:06,169 --> 01:27:04,199
Roswell correct I think the explanation

2096
01:27:08,570 --> 01:27:06,179
for that is that people are conflating

2097
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:08,580
memories across many decades into one

2098
01:27:13,459 --> 01:27:11,010
one event we know that human memory is

2099
01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:13,469
not reliable particularly after decades

2100
01:27:18,770 --> 01:27:16,170
we all confabulate make errors in our

2101
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:18,780
mistake in our memories of our own lives

2102
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:20,610
that we can't get straight this happens

2103
01:27:25,220 --> 01:27:23,280
all the time okay so you remember where

2104
01:27:28,729 --> 01:27:25,230
you were when Kennedy was assassinated I

2105
01:27:30,260 --> 01:27:28,739
do well and I was in third grade yeah

2106
01:27:32,629 --> 01:27:30,270
you probably still remember it and

2107
01:27:34,760 --> 01:27:32,639
something like this I could flash bulb

2108
01:27:35,930 --> 01:27:34,770
memories are not that reliable actually

2109
01:27:37,820 --> 01:27:35,940
they're not there's been studies on

2110
01:27:41,330 --> 01:27:37,830
flashbulb memories they're called and

2111
01:27:44,050 --> 01:27:41,340
they're not that reliable all right I I

2112
01:27:47,300 --> 01:27:44,060
can't see how anyone could confuse a

2113
01:27:48,979 --> 01:27:47,310
time in a date and what did they see in

2114
01:27:51,740 --> 01:27:48,989
the desert you're saying that they saw

2115
01:27:54,050 --> 01:27:51,750
something else at a time this is I'm

2116
01:27:55,669 --> 01:27:54,060
giving you the Pentagon story and there

2117
01:27:57,950 --> 01:27:55,679
and the Pentagon only came up with the

2118
01:27:59,780 --> 01:27:57,960
story simply because you know 50 years

2119
01:28:01,520 --> 01:27:59,790
after the fact you know the public kept

2120
01:28:03,379 --> 01:28:01,530
bugging him about what was this and like

2121
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:03,389
well we don't know maybe it was this

2122
01:28:07,879 --> 01:28:05,489
here here's a couple of things we were

2123
01:28:10,370 --> 01:28:07,889
doing out in the desert back around that

2124
01:28:11,720 --> 01:28:10,380
time maybe this is what people saw you

2125
01:28:13,970 --> 01:28:11,730
know we don't know for sure that's what

2126
01:28:14,450 --> 01:28:13,980
you know people saw think they saw when

2127
01:28:16,160 --> 01:28:14,460
they think they

2128
01:28:18,140 --> 01:28:16,170
saw something or when we just don't know

2129
01:28:20,390 --> 01:28:18,150
you know the you know the evidence is

2130
01:28:22,270 --> 01:28:20,400
too flimsy either way but we do know

2131
01:28:24,260 --> 01:28:22,280
that you know the government was

2132
01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:24,270
experimenting in the Cold War with

2133
01:28:31,910 --> 01:28:27,210
technologies you know about detecting

2134
01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:31,920
Soviet nuclear device nuclear tests and

2135
01:28:35,209 --> 01:28:33,450
of course they're not going to tell the

2136
01:28:36,830 --> 01:28:35,219
public that they're not gonna come out

2137
01:28:38,420 --> 01:28:36,840
and you know and say hey this is what we

2138
01:28:40,310 --> 01:28:38,430
did they're gonna make up a story about

2139
01:28:42,500 --> 01:28:40,320
you know weather balloons and disks or

2140
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:42,510
whatever so you know does the government

2141
01:28:45,979 --> 01:28:44,730
lie to cover up natural secrets yes they

2142
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:45,989
do they do that all the time but that

2143
01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:48,050
doesn't mean there's extraterrestrials

2144
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:51,840
no ice I still think you know I

2145
01:28:55,220 --> 01:28:53,370
understand exactly what you're saying

2146
01:28:57,890 --> 01:28:55,230
about Roswell becoming a myth because I

2147
01:29:01,490 --> 01:28:57,900
have said that many times that it has

2148
01:29:03,979 --> 01:29:01,500
carried into there there's so much more

2149
01:29:05,870 --> 01:29:03,989
there's a lot of moving parts when there

2150
01:29:09,110 --> 01:29:05,880
didn't really have to be and you know

2151
01:29:13,250 --> 01:29:09,120
they make a parade and dress up and they

2152
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:13,260
have the cafe and there are points where

2153
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:16,530
some something can become part myth but

2154
01:29:20,660 --> 01:29:18,210
I do think that they're the nuts and

2155
01:29:22,729 --> 01:29:20,670
bolts of the story in the beginning I

2156
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:22,739
understand what you're also saying about

2157
01:29:27,070 --> 01:29:24,930
it not being presented as one of the

2158
01:29:28,910 --> 01:29:27,080
cases but again I think that's all

2159
01:29:32,330 --> 01:29:28,920
pointing to the fact that it was

2160
01:29:34,100 --> 01:29:32,340
hush-hush to everybody and not repo you

2161
01:29:36,220 --> 01:29:34,110
know that newspaper article came out one

2162
01:29:40,250 --> 01:29:36,230
day the next day they said they had a

2163
01:29:42,590 --> 01:29:40,260
weather balloon right so I think that's

2164
01:29:44,090 --> 01:29:42,600
why that didn't show up yeah well we

2165
01:29:45,709 --> 01:29:44,100
know good we know the government all

2166
01:29:47,930 --> 01:29:45,719
governments lie to their citizens about

2167
01:29:50,870 --> 01:29:47,940
lots of things we've there's pretty much

2168
01:29:52,340 --> 01:29:50,880
on the nightly news you know we just

2169
01:29:55,010 --> 01:29:52,350
found out that the government lied about

2170
01:29:56,959 --> 01:29:55,020
Iraq and they're you know in Afghanistan

2171
01:29:58,670 --> 01:29:56,969
and this and that you know this this is

2172
01:30:00,500 --> 01:29:58,680
pretty common but the fact that they lie

2173
01:30:02,420 --> 01:30:00,510
about that doesn't mean you know

2174
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:02,430
someone's that theory about something is

2175
01:30:06,110 --> 01:30:04,530
true it just means you know we know that

2176
01:30:08,209 --> 01:30:06,120
governments do that all right

2177
01:30:09,500 --> 01:30:08,219
um there's a guy that keeps up that said

2178
01:30:11,660 --> 01:30:09,510
you an article this week that keeps

2179
01:30:14,270 --> 01:30:11,670
posting on the chat room so I'm going to

2180
01:30:17,450 --> 01:30:14,280
have you say it you had something very

2181
01:30:18,950 --> 01:30:17,460
similar to a paranormal situation

2182
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:18,960
happened to you that kind of that kind

2183
01:30:23,830 --> 01:30:20,850
of shook your skeptic world do you want

2184
01:30:26,330 --> 01:30:23,840
to quickly tell that story oh sure

2185
01:30:27,690 --> 01:30:26,340
that's one of my more popular scientific

2186
01:30:29,580 --> 01:30:27,700
american columns Oh

2187
01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:29,590
I should also point out another one that

2188
01:30:32,790 --> 01:30:31,090
that happened to me was an alien

2189
01:30:33,690 --> 01:30:32,800
abduction experience I had since we're

2190
01:30:37,110 --> 01:30:33,700
on that subject

2191
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:37,120
well I team yeah back in 1983 I was

2192
01:30:42,690 --> 01:30:39,010
abducted by aliens I lost ninety minutes

2193
01:30:44,550 --> 01:30:42,700
of time missing time and you know I knew

2194
01:30:46,710 --> 01:30:44,560
for sure that the my abductees were

2195
01:30:49,110 --> 01:30:46,720
aliens and you know all right all right

2196
01:30:50,550 --> 01:30:49,120
what's the joke well it's not a joke now

2197
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:50,560
I've written about this in my books and

2198
01:30:54,780 --> 01:30:52,330
so on I was in the middle of the race

2199
01:30:56,460 --> 01:30:54,790
across America the 3,000 mile non-stop

2200
01:30:58,830 --> 01:30:56,470
transcontinental bike race from LA to

2201
01:31:01,110 --> 01:30:58,840
New York and I'd gone 83 straight hours

2202
01:31:03,870 --> 01:31:01,120
without sleep and I'd ridden 1,200 80

2203
01:31:06,030 --> 01:31:03,880
miles on my bike and from Santa Monica

2204
01:31:08,490 --> 01:31:06,040
all the way into Nebraska without

2205
01:31:10,380 --> 01:31:08,500
stopping and I was hallucinating it was

2206
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:10,390
an interesting hallucination because the

2207
01:31:14,370 --> 01:31:12,130
aliens were my support crew members

2208
01:31:15,930 --> 01:31:14,380
people I knew but I knew that they were

2209
01:31:18,930 --> 01:31:15,940
aliens because they had stiff little

2210
01:31:20,940 --> 01:31:18,940
fingers which was a reference in my mind

2211
01:31:23,430 --> 01:31:20,950
a you know an old memory from my

2212
01:31:25,230 --> 01:31:23,440
childhood of a TV show called the

2213
01:31:27,450 --> 01:31:25,240
invaders starring Roy Thinnes I think

2214
01:31:29,850 --> 01:31:27,460
was on CBS where the aliens were taking

2215
01:31:31,590 --> 01:31:29,860
over the earth you know human by human

2216
01:31:33,180 --> 01:31:31,600
by taking over their bodies is like the

2217
01:31:37,130 --> 01:31:33,190
invasion of the body snatchers kind of

2218
01:31:39,690 --> 01:31:37,140
thing and so I inculcated that memory

2219
01:31:41,610 --> 01:31:39,700
into the hallucination I was having that

2220
01:31:44,310 --> 01:31:41,620
was induced by sleep deprivation and

2221
01:31:47,100 --> 01:31:44,320
fatigue right there on the side of the

2222
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:47,110
road in in Nebraska with people I knew

2223
01:31:50,580 --> 01:31:48,850
that you know and I knew that they

2224
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:50,590
didn't know that I knew and it was a

2225
01:31:54,450 --> 01:31:52,210
whole elaborate thing and you know after

2226
01:31:56,610 --> 01:31:54,460
I got some sleep I realized how crazy

2227
01:31:58,800 --> 01:31:56,620
was you can Google Shermer , alien

2228
01:32:00,750 --> 01:31:58,810
abduction experience and you'll see me

2229
01:32:02,580 --> 01:32:00,760
talking about it the next day on

2230
01:32:04,590 --> 01:32:02,590
television on ABC's Wide World of Sports

2231
01:32:07,020 --> 01:32:04,600
telling Eric Hyden in the van there oh

2232
01:32:07,850 --> 01:32:07,030
man I had an amazing hallucination last

2233
01:32:10,500 --> 01:32:07,860
night here it is

2234
01:32:11,460 --> 01:32:10,510
so that really happened to me now the

2235
01:32:13,650 --> 01:32:11,470
other one you're referring to is a

2236
01:32:17,190 --> 01:32:13,660
column I did last year in Scientific

2237
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:17,200
American on this unusual experience my

2238
01:32:20,040 --> 01:32:18,610
wife and I had when we got married my

2239
01:32:24,330 --> 01:32:20,050
wife's from Cologne Germany she came

2240
01:32:26,070 --> 01:32:24,340
here to be with me and so we decided to

2241
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:26,080
get married at the Beverly Hills

2242
01:32:30,450 --> 01:32:27,610
courthouse and then have a ceremony at

2243
01:32:32,820 --> 01:32:30,460
my house with my family but she was

2244
01:32:34,650 --> 01:32:32,830
feeling kind of blue that she was alone

2245
01:32:37,410 --> 01:32:34,660
no friends or family here was just my

2246
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:37,420
friends and family and months before she

2247
01:32:42,180 --> 01:32:40,690
had shipped out her stuff and I just had

2248
01:32:44,560 --> 01:32:42,190
it stored

2249
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:44,570
including our grandfather's radio he had

2250
01:32:50,050 --> 01:32:46,010
this little transistor radio Philips

2251
01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:50,060
radio from the 1970s and her and her

2252
01:32:52,660 --> 01:32:51,410
grandfather used to listen to this and I

2253
01:32:54,730 --> 01:32:52,670
was sort of the father figure in her

2254
01:32:57,130 --> 01:32:54,740
life because her father was not part of

2255
01:32:59,170 --> 01:32:57,140
her life so that was meaningful to her

2256
01:33:00,280 --> 01:32:59,180
but it didn't work and I spent a long

2257
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:00,290
time trying to get it working and put

2258
01:33:04,300 --> 01:33:02,330
new batteries in and I tried to fix it

2259
01:33:06,310 --> 01:33:04,310
in it anyway it was dead so I stuffed it

2260
01:33:09,430 --> 01:33:06,320
in the back of a drawer in our bedroom

2261
01:33:11,020 --> 01:33:09,440
in a in a desk and that was that for

2262
01:33:13,990 --> 01:33:11,030
months nothing happened and but today we

2263
01:33:15,490 --> 01:33:14,000
got married that you know the radio all

2264
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:15,500
of a sudden came on and music was

2265
01:33:19,900 --> 01:33:17,090
playing and was like I couldn't figure

2266
01:33:21,640 --> 01:33:19,910
it out is like maybe my iphone is on and

2267
01:33:23,290 --> 01:33:21,650
they left my laptop and my iTunes on

2268
01:33:25,300 --> 01:33:23,300
which I never do but wasn't that maybe

2269
01:33:26,530 --> 01:33:25,310
the neighbors are playing music wasn't

2270
01:33:29,890 --> 01:33:26,540
that and all of a sudden we figured out

2271
01:33:31,780 --> 01:33:29,900
the music's coming from this desk so we

2272
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:31,790
open it up and now there's a radio

2273
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:34,210
perfectly tuned to a station no static

2274
01:33:38,950 --> 01:33:36,770
and it was you know some romantic song

2275
01:33:41,020 --> 01:33:38,960
and it was very moving

2276
01:33:42,730 --> 01:33:41,030
Farzin radio played the rest of the day

2277
01:33:45,670 --> 01:33:42,740
and night and in the next day it went

2278
01:33:47,770 --> 01:33:45,680
dad's been dead ever since so you know

2279
01:33:50,590 --> 01:33:47,780
for us it was you know meaningful

2280
01:33:53,110 --> 01:33:50,600
experience we really appreciated it

2281
01:33:55,270 --> 01:33:53,120
Jennifer's especially my wife was felt

2282
01:33:56,860 --> 01:33:55,280
connected to her grandfather in some way

2283
01:33:59,710 --> 01:33:56,870
you know he was there symbolically or

2284
01:34:01,150 --> 01:33:59,720
whatever you know who knows and so we

2285
01:34:03,700 --> 01:34:01,160
you know we just kind of left it open as

2286
01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:03,710
as an experience to enjoy and appreciate

2287
01:34:10,780 --> 01:34:07,010
with emotional significance for us but

2288
01:34:12,010 --> 01:34:10,790
that's all yeah okay well it's up I

2289
01:34:13,630 --> 01:34:12,020
think it's kind of good that you

2290
01:34:16,660 --> 01:34:13,640
actually wrote about it and I'm not

2291
01:34:18,370 --> 01:34:16,670
saying you know I've had a couple of

2292
01:34:21,190 --> 01:34:18,380
other things happen in my life that

2293
01:34:23,200 --> 01:34:21,200
we're very very unusual and I think

2294
01:34:25,420 --> 01:34:23,210
sometimes if things are just hard to

2295
01:34:26,830 --> 01:34:25,430
explain well one of the interesting

2296
01:34:28,030 --> 01:34:26,840
things about that because I wrote in

2297
01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:28,040
Scientific American I have a million

2298
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:29,930
readers you know people a lot of people

2299
01:34:33,550 --> 01:34:32,090
wrote me I got a few you know letters

2300
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:33,560
going how can you say there's Shermer

2301
01:34:37,890 --> 01:34:35,210
you've you've betrayed the skepticism

2302
01:34:40,180 --> 01:34:37,900
it's like no you didn't read my article

2303
01:34:42,610 --> 01:34:40,190
but most of the letters I got tons and

2304
01:34:44,440 --> 01:34:42,620
tons of letters all had experiences

2305
01:34:46,090 --> 01:34:44,450
people have weird experiences like that

2306
01:34:48,330 --> 01:34:46,100
nothing quite like the radio but the

2307
01:34:51,340 --> 01:34:48,340
equivalent of that in some other way and

2308
01:34:53,050 --> 01:34:51,350
you know hundreds of them so I it made

2309
01:34:55,480 --> 01:34:53,060
me realize okay this is really

2310
01:34:57,220 --> 01:34:55,490
interesting you know people have

2311
01:34:59,950 --> 01:34:57,230
most experiences just weird stuff

2312
01:35:01,740 --> 01:34:59,960
happens a lot now there's a question up

2313
01:35:04,570 --> 01:35:01,750
on the message board and then I have

2314
01:35:05,740 --> 01:35:04,580
like I said I got a bunch of emails I'm

2315
01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:05,750
going to try to get through some of them

2316
01:35:12,550 --> 01:35:08,210
but have you ever looked into the

2317
01:35:14,020 --> 01:35:12,560
enhanced general ramey memo that someone

2318
01:35:15,580 --> 01:35:14,030
was in San Francisco was actually

2319
01:35:16,210 --> 01:35:15,590
working on for several years to enhance

2320
01:35:18,580 --> 01:35:16,220
now

2321
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:18,590
ramie is the one who's standing next to

2322
01:35:21,610 --> 01:35:20,090
the weather balloon

2323
01:35:23,230 --> 01:35:21,620
this is the last Roswell question and

2324
01:35:25,470 --> 01:35:23,240
then asking I'm standing next to the

2325
01:35:28,330 --> 01:35:25,480
Roswell balloon with a memo in his hand

2326
01:35:30,220 --> 01:35:28,340
and holding out the debris of the

2327
01:35:32,560 --> 01:35:30,230
weather balloon in the picture that they

2328
01:35:34,090 --> 01:35:32,570
said it was not a flying saucer was a

2329
01:35:36,700 --> 01:35:34,100
weather balloon type of thing in his

2330
01:35:40,480 --> 01:35:36,710
hand he has a memo and that was enhanced

2331
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:40,490
in in that enhancement it shows clearly

2332
01:35:45,610 --> 01:35:43,930
that it says a recovering body

2333
01:35:49,690 --> 01:35:45,620
recovering bodies

2334
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:49,700
victus I haven't seen that okay so we'll

2335
01:35:54,550 --> 01:35:52,970
move on I'm gonna ask this question here

2336
01:35:56,890 --> 01:35:54,560
that someone emailed in what are your

2337
01:35:59,710 --> 01:35:56,900
personal guidelines for accepting some

2338
01:36:01,300 --> 01:35:59,720
item as fact obviously you cannot

2339
01:36:03,520 --> 01:36:01,310
believe that why you have personally

2340
01:36:05,290 --> 01:36:03,530
seen or 98 percent of the world would

2341
01:36:07,510 --> 01:36:05,300
not exist for you I'm not sure exactly

2342
01:36:09,580 --> 01:36:07,520
what that means what are your rules for

2343
01:36:13,420 --> 01:36:09,590
the reasonable acceptance of items as

2344
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:13,430
fact be it existence of Borneo which I

2345
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:15,290
assume that you have never visited or

2346
01:36:21,010 --> 01:36:18,530
ball lightning well I've been to Borneo

2347
01:36:23,050 --> 01:36:21,020
and I think I may have seen in ball

2348
01:36:24,700 --> 01:36:23,060
lightning but his point is that you know

2349
01:36:26,950 --> 01:36:24,710
like for example how would I know that

2350
01:36:29,020 --> 01:36:26,960
the Roman Empire existed since you know

2351
01:36:30,280 --> 01:36:29,030
with none of us were there yeah and

2352
01:36:32,590 --> 01:36:30,290
that's our thing so it's a reasonable

2353
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:32,600
question has to do with the field of

2354
01:36:37,510 --> 01:36:34,850
epistemology and philosophy how do we

2355
01:36:38,920 --> 01:36:37,520
know anything that we know so there's

2356
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:38,930
different theories about this but you

2357
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:40,730
know it first it begins with just a kind

2358
01:36:45,010 --> 01:36:42,610
of a reality check that is we have a

2359
01:36:48,100 --> 01:36:45,020
reasonable amount of experience with our

2360
01:36:50,170 --> 01:36:48,110
senses of cross-checking modalities say

2361
01:36:51,940 --> 01:36:50,180
what something looks like what it feels

2362
01:36:53,710 --> 01:36:51,950
like but it sounds like you know that

2363
01:36:55,510 --> 01:36:53,720
kind of thing and and we come to some

2364
01:36:57,250 --> 01:36:55,520
kind of a consensus amongst observers

2365
01:36:59,080 --> 01:36:57,260
that you know if the quacks like a duck

2366
01:37:01,270 --> 01:36:59,090
you know waddles like a duck you know

2367
01:37:03,940 --> 01:37:01,280
it's probably a duck something like that

2368
01:37:06,250 --> 01:37:03,950
now it now it gets a little trickier

2369
01:37:07,750 --> 01:37:06,260
when you're talking about theories like

2370
01:37:08,620 --> 01:37:07,760
how do we know global warming is real

2371
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:08,630
and human cause

2372
01:37:13,990 --> 01:37:11,090
you know to pick up the controversy one

2373
01:37:15,490 --> 01:37:14,000
out of the headlines and and so there we

2374
01:37:17,919 --> 01:37:15,500
talk to you you hear this this phrase

2375
01:37:20,530 --> 01:37:17,929
the consensus science what does that

2376
01:37:23,290 --> 01:37:20,540
mean I mean science is not a democracy

2377
01:37:24,820 --> 01:37:23,300
we don't vote I mean you either have the

2378
01:37:26,890 --> 01:37:24,830
evidence or you don't well okay but

2379
01:37:28,810 --> 01:37:26,900
these are complicated Sciences the

2380
01:37:32,110 --> 01:37:28,820
models are really tricky the math is

2381
01:37:33,790 --> 01:37:32,120
very difficult and you know if you said

2382
01:37:35,620 --> 01:37:33,800
if you send me one of these climate

2383
01:37:37,510 --> 01:37:35,630
papers I can't tell you know if it's

2384
01:37:38,680 --> 01:37:37,520
saying something important or not and

2385
01:37:42,280 --> 01:37:38,690
and that's why we have to have the

2386
01:37:44,500 --> 01:37:42,290
expert so that's why the UN has that you

2387
01:37:46,570 --> 01:37:44,510
know a committee of you know scientists

2388
01:37:48,430 --> 01:37:46,580
that just sit there and discuss well you

2389
01:37:50,470 --> 01:37:48,440
know what are the what's the value of

2390
01:37:52,570 --> 01:37:50,480
this particular data set or for that

2391
01:37:54,010 --> 01:37:52,580
experiment or this research and then

2392
01:37:56,680 --> 01:37:54,020
they come up with a consensus now they

2393
01:37:58,360 --> 01:37:56,690
might they might be wrong but but the

2394
01:38:00,430 --> 01:37:58,370
fact that there's so many lines of

2395
01:38:03,280 --> 01:38:00,440
evidence leads us to be confident that

2396
01:38:05,229 --> 01:38:03,290
it's probably real it's probably human

2397
01:38:09,280 --> 01:38:05,239
human the real and human cause something

2398
01:38:12,490 --> 01:38:09,290
like that and you know so once you move

2399
01:38:14,050 --> 01:38:12,500
into the realm of like theories then in

2400
01:38:16,570 --> 01:38:14,060
science there has to be not just

2401
01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:16,580
evidence but some kind of a consensus

2402
01:38:20,169 --> 01:38:18,530
amongst people that know what they're

2403
01:38:21,370 --> 01:38:20,179
looking at that that do this for a

2404
01:38:23,410 --> 01:38:21,380
living

2405
01:38:26,050 --> 01:38:23,420
there's a consensus that it's it's real

2406
01:38:28,330 --> 01:38:26,060
and the reason the paranormal and

2407
01:38:31,870 --> 01:38:28,340
related subjects the supernatural

2408
01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:31,880
miracles God UFOs aliens and so forth

2409
01:38:37,180 --> 01:38:34,489
don't have a consensus is that because

2410
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:37,190
they're they're not replicable hey

2411
01:38:40,770 --> 01:38:38,449
they're not replicable you can't you

2412
01:38:43,419 --> 01:38:40,780
know run the experiment in the lab some

2413
01:38:46,330 --> 01:38:43,429
PSP stuff you can do and they always

2414
01:38:49,180 --> 01:38:46,340
they almost always fail the tests but

2415
01:38:51,340 --> 01:38:49,190
you know one-off events like a UFO

2416
01:38:53,500 --> 01:38:51,350
sighting like the experience you had I

2417
01:38:55,780 --> 01:38:53,510
don't know you know we can't run that

2418
01:38:58,060 --> 01:38:55,790
and we can try to track it down and find

2419
01:38:59,740 --> 01:38:58,070
you know some you know with a local Air

2420
01:39:01,930 --> 01:38:59,750
Force Base where you flying anything

2421
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:01,940
that night that kind of thing and if you

2422
01:39:05,350 --> 01:39:03,770
if you get an explanation okay well

2423
01:39:07,810 --> 01:39:05,360
that's good you know Phoenix lights you

2424
01:39:14,459 --> 01:39:07,820
know players okay thank you

2425
01:39:17,320 --> 01:39:14,469
yeah so I don't agree with you both but

2426
01:39:19,300 --> 01:39:17,330
other Phoenix lights but but I have

2427
01:39:20,709 --> 01:39:19,310
while we're on and I'll talk to you

2428
01:39:21,980 --> 01:39:20,719
about that in just a second but while

2429
01:39:25,230 --> 01:39:21,990
we're on

2430
01:39:28,230 --> 01:39:25,240
scepticism I found the the general ramey

2431
01:39:30,510 --> 01:39:28,240
memo if you google general ramey memo

2432
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:30,520
comes up all over the place here and to

2433
01:39:35,130 --> 01:39:33,610
me that's a classic example of what I

2434
01:39:37,020 --> 01:39:35,140
call pattern isset II you know find or

2435
01:39:38,370 --> 01:39:37,030
you know sort of priming the brain to

2436
01:39:40,290 --> 01:39:38,380
see things a certain way it's a good

2437
01:39:41,970 --> 01:39:40,300
pattern because if the words weren't

2438
01:39:43,710 --> 01:39:41,980
there and the victims of the wreck in

2439
01:39:46,350 --> 01:39:43,720
the disabled ship you know these words

2440
01:39:48,180 --> 01:39:46,360
if they if the words were not typed in

2441
01:39:51,870 --> 01:39:48,190
there below the kind of dark and murky

2442
01:39:53,490 --> 01:39:51,880
type I I don't think I could read it see

2443
01:39:56,130 --> 01:39:53,500
I think people are reading into this

2444
01:39:57,810 --> 01:39:56,140
more than may actually be there well as

2445
01:40:00,450 --> 01:39:57,820
what I got to say about that as

2446
01:40:02,370 --> 01:40:00,460
technology improves there's going to be

2447
01:40:04,020 --> 01:40:02,380
a program eventually that's going to be

2448
01:40:05,730 --> 01:40:04,030
able to crack that we'll see what

2449
01:40:07,530 --> 01:40:05,740
happens I don't know because you know

2450
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:07,540
that if the original data is no good

2451
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:08,650
then it doesn't matter how sophisticated

2452
01:40:14,700 --> 01:40:12,130
your your you know try your computer

2453
01:40:17,730 --> 01:40:14,710
program is in you know like I look at

2454
01:40:20,670 --> 01:40:17,740
these enhanced process composite and so

2455
01:40:22,140 --> 01:40:20,680
I don't know you know that like the

2456
01:40:24,090 --> 01:40:22,150
flatbed scanner can you know you can

2457
01:40:25,980 --> 01:40:24,100
scan stuff and then you enhance it but

2458
01:40:27,120 --> 01:40:25,990
if the original is too murky if the

2459
01:40:29,220 --> 01:40:27,130
evidence isn't there

2460
01:40:31,260 --> 01:40:29,230
it's like making the fake UFO

2461
01:40:32,880 --> 01:40:31,270
photographs with fishing line on a pole

2462
01:40:35,070 --> 01:40:32,890
and dangling something in front of your

2463
01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:35,080
camera you can't you really can't see

2464
01:40:38,820 --> 01:40:36,850
the fishing line it's it's it's

2465
01:40:40,740 --> 01:40:38,830
invisible to the film invisible to the

2466
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:40,750
camera lens it doesn't matter how

2467
01:40:44,310 --> 01:40:42,610
enhanced the photograph is or what

2468
01:40:47,130 --> 01:40:44,320
computers you use the data is just not

2469
01:40:49,770 --> 01:40:47,140
there yeah and I we know who you know

2470
01:40:51,750 --> 01:40:49,780
there is a person that is famous for

2471
01:40:54,330 --> 01:40:51,760
doing that that there's a bunch of UFO

2472
01:40:56,190 --> 01:40:54,340
videos and pictures out there so I know

2473
01:40:58,620 --> 01:40:56,200
who you're talking about

2474
01:41:01,860 --> 01:40:58,630
but okay we're on the lines of

2475
01:41:04,860 --> 01:41:01,870
skepticism do you think that James Randi

2476
01:41:07,050 --> 01:41:04,870
you know the amazing Randi has hurt the

2477
01:41:08,670 --> 01:41:07,060
skepticism movement since it was

2478
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:08,680
revealed that he knew his partner was

2479
01:41:13,500 --> 01:41:10,930
living under assumed identity for years

2480
01:41:17,820 --> 01:41:13,510
after making a career as someone

2481
01:41:20,340 --> 01:41:17,830
advocating for the truth oh I don't know

2482
01:41:21,750 --> 01:41:20,350
I don't think the skeptical movement has

2483
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:21,760
affected one way or the other by that

2484
01:41:25,050 --> 01:41:22,930
because you know Randy's pretty much

2485
01:41:27,300 --> 01:41:25,060
retired now and it isn't actively

2486
01:41:28,590 --> 01:41:27,310
involved in the movement at all I don't

2487
01:41:31,020 --> 01:41:28,600
think it had an effect one way or the

2488
01:41:33,300 --> 01:41:31,030
other I mean no one really know about it

2489
01:41:34,500 --> 01:41:33,310
I mean came out gay years ago and you

2490
01:41:38,760 --> 01:41:34,510
know if

2491
01:41:41,220 --> 01:41:38,770
that film so you know the fact that you

2492
01:41:43,050 --> 01:41:41,230
know person a is you know not not as

2493
01:41:45,390 --> 01:41:43,060
honest as we thought they were it

2494
01:41:48,750 --> 01:41:45,400
doesn't it doesn't affect it any more

2495
01:41:52,140 --> 01:41:48,760
than say a pastor turns out to be a

2496
01:41:54,540 --> 01:41:52,150
hypocrite effects of religions claims

2497
01:41:56,910 --> 01:41:54,550
they're the claims have to stand or fall

2498
01:42:00,000 --> 01:41:56,920
on their own regardless of the person's

2499
01:42:01,770 --> 01:42:00,010
you know morality or values okay you

2500
01:42:04,200 --> 01:42:01,780
said just a minute ago Phoenix lights I

2501
01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:04,210
said I'd address that was just flares

2502
01:42:10,410 --> 01:42:07,330
now I know the news showed there were

2503
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:10,420
definitely flares that night and there's

2504
01:42:16,380 --> 01:42:14,770
who knows why exactly a coincidence it

2505
01:42:18,330 --> 01:42:16,390
was the same night but this didn't this

2506
01:42:21,840 --> 01:42:18,340
wasn't just in Phoenix where people saw

2507
01:42:25,290 --> 01:42:21,850
this huge triangle some talking about it

2508
01:42:27,660 --> 01:42:25,300
being up to a mile wide that it came

2509
01:42:30,750 --> 01:42:27,670
down through a valley and was seen you

2510
01:42:33,510 --> 01:42:30,760
know for two hours or so before the film

2511
01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:33,520
you see the flares were shot around well

2512
01:42:38,070 --> 01:42:36,370
there were different as I recall they

2513
01:42:40,700 --> 01:42:38,080
were two two different two different

2514
01:42:43,070 --> 01:42:40,710
events that night two different things

2515
01:42:46,920 --> 01:42:43,080
here I got it I'm pulling up our own

2516
01:42:52,770 --> 01:42:46,930
article on this and skeptic Phoenix

2517
01:42:55,080 --> 01:42:52,780
lights explained again let's see well

2518
01:42:56,700 --> 01:42:55,090
yeah anyway so sorry I don't have that

2519
01:42:58,980 --> 01:42:56,710
at the tip of my tongue but if I recall

2520
01:43:01,200 --> 01:42:58,990
it was two different places to different

2521
01:43:03,240 --> 01:43:01,210
events that made it look like it was one

2522
01:43:05,190 --> 01:43:03,250
event of these things moving when in

2523
01:43:09,630 --> 01:43:05,200
fact it wasn't one event it was two

2524
01:43:11,310 --> 01:43:09,640
events but if you it was seen through

2525
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:11,320
several miles different parts of Arizona

2526
01:43:17,670 --> 01:43:14,610
on the same evening yeah early on and

2527
01:43:20,730 --> 01:43:17,680
then later on there were flares shot up

2528
01:43:23,670 --> 01:43:20,740
are dropped actually in the valley there

2529
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:23,680
and a lot of people confuse that with

2530
01:43:27,570 --> 01:43:25,810
just saying oh it was the flares but

2531
01:43:32,610 --> 01:43:27,580
there was also a pilot that went up to

2532
01:43:34,770 --> 01:43:32,620
actually see this thing and has given

2533
01:43:37,190 --> 01:43:34,780
some testimony about what he saw you

2534
01:43:41,250 --> 01:43:37,200
know and also I'm sure you know about

2535
01:43:44,840 --> 01:43:41,260
Governor Fife Symington yes yes I have

2536
01:43:47,620 --> 01:43:44,850
met him in change of his story and so on

2537
01:43:50,450 --> 01:43:47,630
I'm not convinced let's see there was

2538
01:43:54,650 --> 01:43:50,460
this reading here the night of March

2539
01:43:56,030 --> 01:43:54,660
13th news of 8:30 p.m. citing travel

2540
01:43:57,650 --> 01:43:56,040
fast or a large number of people were

2541
01:43:59,390 --> 01:43:57,660
outside with video cameras when the

2542
01:44:01,910 --> 01:43:59,400
second and unrelated event happened at

2543
01:44:02,540 --> 01:44:01,920
10:00 p.m. in the sky southwest of

2544
01:44:05,390 --> 01:44:02,550
Phoenix

2545
01:44:07,670 --> 01:44:05,400
string of Lights appeared in this guy

2546
01:44:09,170 --> 01:44:07,680
and slowly sank until they disappeared

2547
01:44:10,850 --> 01:44:09,180
behind the nearby its trailer mountain

2548
01:44:12,500 --> 01:44:10,860
range this was later shown to be a

2549
01:44:15,230 --> 01:44:12,510
string of flares dropped by the Maryland

2550
01:44:19,130 --> 01:44:15,240
Air National Guard over the north tack

2551
01:44:20,690 --> 01:44:19,140
military range dr. Lynn katti featured

2552
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:20,700
prominently on the Dateline program

2553
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:22,890
about this can repeat all she wants to

2554
01:44:26,510 --> 01:44:24,330
NBC in other media that these lights

2555
01:44:28,010 --> 01:44:26,520
were magical and intelligent and later

2556
01:44:29,810 --> 01:44:28,020
showed up just outside her living room

2557
01:44:31,250 --> 01:44:29,820
but the videotape that's taken that

2558
01:44:32,900 --> 01:44:31,260
night by many people show without a

2559
01:44:34,370 --> 01:44:32,910
doubt that this was a string of mundane

2560
01:44:36,320 --> 01:44:34,380
lights that fell and disappeared behind

2561
01:44:37,850 --> 01:44:36,330
the range exactly as the string of

2562
01:44:40,310 --> 01:44:37,860
flares dropped by the military planes

2563
01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:40,320
would have the problem developed later

2564
01:44:44,330 --> 01:44:42,330
when people conflated reports of the two

2565
01:44:46,940 --> 01:44:44,340
sightings for the many people who had

2566
01:44:48,140 --> 01:44:46,950
seen the earlier v-shaped thing pass

2567
01:44:50,060 --> 01:44:48,150
directly over their heads the

2568
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:50,070
explanation the flares no made no sense

2569
01:44:53,720 --> 01:44:51,050
whatsoever

2570
01:44:55,940 --> 01:44:53,730
news organizations didn't differentiate

2571
01:44:58,150 --> 01:44:55,950
between the two events a report on the

2572
01:45:00,650 --> 01:44:58,160
Stanly identification blah blah blah

2573
01:45:03,770 --> 01:45:00,660
anyway so I think that's the problem I

2574
01:45:05,810 --> 01:45:03,780
think people are you know conflating two

2575
01:45:07,430 --> 01:45:05,820
events into one and that's why it seems

2576
01:45:09,770 --> 01:45:07,440
like well how could that be flares it

2577
01:45:12,530 --> 01:45:09,780
was shaped differently and triangular

2578
01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:12,540
shaped and and so about what about the

2579
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:15,090
triangular shaped as for the people who

2580
01:45:19,160 --> 01:45:17,010
swore they saw a black triangular shape

2581
01:45:21,140 --> 01:45:19,170
joining the five lights of the V that's

2582
01:45:23,150 --> 01:45:21,150
a classic contrast effect of the human

2583
01:45:25,940 --> 01:45:23,160
eye in a variant Ellen case a man who

2584
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:25,950
swore he saw a black shape joining the

2585
01:45:29,510 --> 01:45:27,810
lights of the veep saw it passed

2586
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:29,520
directly in front of the moon at that

2587
01:45:34,790 --> 01:45:31,410
point he saw not a black shape but wavy

2588
01:45:36,110 --> 01:45:34,800
lines pass over the undimmed moon so

2589
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:36,120
rather than conclude that he had seen

2590
01:45:40,100 --> 01:45:38,610
the contrails of planes the man whose

2591
01:45:41,900 --> 01:45:40,110
perception had already been heavily

2592
01:45:43,460 --> 01:45:41,910
influenced by the UFO explanation

2593
01:45:45,650 --> 01:45:43,470
concluded instead that the pilot of the

2594
01:45:47,300 --> 01:45:45,660
alien craft had turned his spaceship

2595
01:45:49,940 --> 01:45:47,310
transparent right at the moment so the

2596
01:45:52,250 --> 01:45:49,950
man could see the moon through it in

2597
01:45:55,540 --> 01:45:52,260
other words it was just it was it was

2598
01:45:57,750 --> 01:45:55,550
just a series of planes flying in a

2599
01:46:01,380 --> 01:45:57,760
triangular shape

2600
01:46:03,180 --> 01:46:01,390
which the mind then fills in with you

2601
01:46:05,939 --> 01:46:03,190
know the the spacecraft itself same

2602
01:46:07,729 --> 01:46:05,949
thing with that Leslie Kean talks about

2603
01:46:09,900 --> 01:46:07,739
in her book that I wrote about in

2604
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:09,910
Scientific American this is a classic

2605
01:46:16,380 --> 01:46:12,370
case here essentially this column I

2606
01:46:18,689 --> 01:46:16,390
wrote the Major General Wilfred Bowers

2607
01:46:22,040 --> 01:46:18,699
account of the sighting so this is the

2608
01:46:24,120 --> 01:46:22,050
case of the Belgian UFO wave 1989-90

2609
01:46:25,979 --> 01:46:24,130
hundreds of people saw a majestic

2610
01:46:28,110 --> 01:46:25,989
triangular craft with a span of

2611
01:46:30,419 --> 01:46:28,120
approximately 120 feet and powerful

2612
01:46:32,760 --> 01:46:30,429
beaming spotlights moving very slowly

2613
01:46:34,979 --> 01:46:32,770
without making any significant noise but

2614
01:46:40,140 --> 01:46:34,989
in several cases accelerating to very

2615
01:46:42,479 --> 01:46:40,150
high speeds and then and Leslie Keens

2616
01:46:44,729 --> 01:46:42,489
book this is how she describes that same

2617
01:46:47,130 --> 01:46:44,739
incident common sense tells us that if a

2618
01:46:48,959 --> 01:46:47,140
government had developed a huge craft

2619
01:46:51,390 --> 01:46:48,969
that can hover motionless only a few

2620
01:46:52,919 --> 01:46:51,400
hundred feet up and then speed up in the

2621
01:46:54,570 --> 01:46:52,929
blink of an eye all without making a

2622
01:46:56,280 --> 01:46:54,580
sound such technology would have

2623
01:46:58,500 --> 01:46:56,290
revolutionized both air travel and

2624
01:47:00,090 --> 01:46:58,510
modern warfare and probably physics as

2625
01:47:02,880 --> 01:47:00,100
well close quote

2626
01:47:04,380 --> 01:47:02,890
note how the 120 foot craft becomes by

2627
01:47:08,090 --> 01:47:04,390
the way how did how does anyone know

2628
01:47:11,220 --> 01:47:08,100
it's 120 feet how do you know start and

2629
01:47:13,620 --> 01:47:11,230
notes at 1 20 foot craft becomes huge

2630
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:13,630
how moving very slowly changes to can

2631
01:47:18,180 --> 01:47:16,210
hover motionless how without making any

2632
01:47:19,140 --> 01:47:18,190
significant noise shifts to without

2633
01:47:21,180 --> 01:47:19,150
making a sound

2634
01:47:23,790 --> 01:47:21,190
and how accelerating to very high speeds

2635
01:47:24,330 --> 01:47:23,800
transforms into speed off in the blink

2636
01:47:26,419 --> 01:47:24,340
of an eye

2637
01:47:29,910 --> 01:47:26,429
so it's this language transmute a

2638
01:47:33,060 --> 01:47:29,920
transmutation that happens a lot in UFO

2639
01:47:34,530 --> 01:47:33,070
narratives you know and again people it

2640
01:47:39,120 --> 01:47:34,540
was traveling at this speed it was this

2641
01:47:41,370 --> 01:47:39,130
size how do you know well you know a lot

2642
01:47:46,020 --> 01:47:41,380
of it's just best guessed but what about

2643
01:47:49,290 --> 01:47:46,030
the there was well again Fife Symington

2644
01:47:51,030 --> 01:47:49,300
is a pilot would he the thing he saw go

2645
01:47:53,640 --> 01:47:51,040
over his head

2646
01:47:55,650 --> 01:47:53,650
how could he mistake that for a jet

2647
01:47:57,720 --> 01:47:55,660
formation same way you and I would I

2648
01:47:59,250 --> 01:47:57,730
mean if the his brain works like my

2649
01:48:01,410 --> 01:47:59,260
brain works like your brain works fills

2650
01:48:03,570 --> 01:48:01,420
in the fills in the gaps you can see

2651
01:48:05,760 --> 01:48:03,580
these you know illusions where you know

2652
01:48:07,650 --> 01:48:05,770
you put just the you know three little

2653
01:48:10,570 --> 01:48:07,660
Pacman type shapes in a certain

2654
01:48:13,870 --> 01:48:10,580
orientation and you see a triangle

2655
01:48:15,730 --> 01:48:13,880
right at I'm not I'm not so sure I'm not

2656
01:48:18,400 --> 01:48:15,740
so sure I don't I don't really agree

2657
01:48:19,330 --> 01:48:18,410
with you on that when it comes to

2658
01:48:21,310 --> 01:48:19,340
someone like him

2659
01:48:22,900 --> 01:48:21,320
and I know you can probably say that you

2660
01:48:24,100 --> 01:48:22,910
know why is he a better observer but

2661
01:48:26,980 --> 01:48:24,110
someone that as a pilot a commercial

2662
01:48:29,230 --> 01:48:26,990
pilot is going to be we only have three

2663
01:48:32,470 --> 01:48:29,240
minutes left so and I feel like I've got

2664
01:48:34,120 --> 01:48:32,480
a million questions to ask you I just

2665
01:48:38,440 --> 01:48:34,130
feel like you haven't been on long

2666
01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:38,450
enough but here is a question that I

2667
01:48:43,630 --> 01:48:41,810
promised a person I'd ask often UFO

2668
01:48:46,450 --> 01:48:43,640
researchers are accused of taking their

2669
01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:46,460
positions because they quote make money

2670
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:49,130
unquote from books or appearances as a

2671
01:48:52,690 --> 01:48:50,810
publisher yourself what do you think

2672
01:48:55,570 --> 01:48:52,700
about the balance between research and

2673
01:48:57,970 --> 01:48:55,580
profit what about the big business that

2674
01:48:59,890 --> 01:48:57,980
skepticism has become in the last few

2675
01:49:05,140 --> 01:48:59,900
years do you think that it's harming

2676
01:49:07,630 --> 01:49:05,150
your message it's a fair point but I

2677
01:49:09,940 --> 01:49:07,640
actually don't think the people on the

2678
01:49:11,950 --> 01:49:09,950
other side believers so to speak do what

2679
01:49:13,330 --> 01:49:11,960
they do to make money so I wouldn't even

2680
01:49:15,490 --> 01:49:13,340
make that argument in the first place I

2681
01:49:16,930 --> 01:49:15,500
know some people do but I don't and

2682
01:49:20,830 --> 01:49:16,940
second there's not big money in

2683
01:49:22,090 --> 01:49:20,840
skepticism I can assure you and third I

2684
01:49:23,860 --> 01:49:22,100
mean most of the stuff that I write

2685
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:23,870
about like if I was writing about UFOs

2686
01:49:27,220 --> 01:49:25,970
if it turned out to be true this

2687
01:49:29,410 --> 01:49:27,230
wouldn't be a bad thing first of all I

2688
01:49:32,020 --> 01:49:29,420
wouldn't hurt me in any way I wouldn't

2689
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:32,030
care if I had to revive my chapter 7 and

2690
01:49:35,800 --> 01:49:33,530
why people believe weird things or

2691
01:49:39,160 --> 01:49:35,810
whatever this would make no difference

2692
01:49:41,500 --> 01:49:39,170
to me financially or or reputation wise

2693
01:49:42,970 --> 01:49:41,510
and and if anything in terms of like

2694
01:49:45,430 --> 01:49:42,980
government cover-ups and that sort of

2695
01:49:47,470 --> 01:49:45,440
thing you know NASA would love to find

2696
01:49:49,260 --> 01:49:47,480
evidence of extraterrestrial

2697
01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:49,270
intelligence anything from egg to

2698
01:49:54,520 --> 01:49:52,610
bacterial grade to you know something

2699
01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:54,530
that can fly spaceships you know think

2700
01:49:57,250 --> 01:49:55,730
I'm much easier it would be to convince

2701
01:49:59,020 --> 01:49:57,260
Congress particularly a Republican

2702
01:50:00,310 --> 01:49:59,030
Congress that you know we really need to

2703
01:50:02,110 --> 01:50:00,320
get on this because they could be

2704
01:50:04,630 --> 01:50:02,120
dangerous they could be like the Soviets

2705
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:04,640
or you know whatever a threat to our our

2706
01:50:08,560 --> 01:50:06,170
airspace that we we need to allocate

2707
01:50:12,280 --> 01:50:08,570
more funds for it if anything it would

2708
01:50:15,130 --> 01:50:12,290
have the galvanizing effect to improve

2709
01:50:18,340 --> 01:50:15,140
the research that you know ufo-ologists

2710
01:50:20,050 --> 01:50:18,350
want more of and so contrary to the

2711
01:50:22,030 --> 01:50:20,060
argument that they cover it up I think

2712
01:50:23,940 --> 01:50:22,040
just the opposite would be true okay we

2713
01:50:26,190 --> 01:50:23,950
have just one minute left

2714
01:50:27,780 --> 01:50:26,200
well I really don't have any time to go

2715
01:50:29,580 --> 01:50:27,790
into anything but I want to ask you if

2716
01:50:31,410 --> 01:50:29,590
there was one case out there that you

2717
01:50:35,030 --> 01:50:31,420
thought really needed to be looked in

2718
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:35,040
just real quickly please one case well

2719
01:50:41,070 --> 01:50:39,010
you mean in terms of UFOs yeah now

2720
01:50:42,930 --> 01:50:41,080
there's no one that sticks out I like

2721
01:50:45,480 --> 01:50:42,940
Roswell because of its of its

2722
01:50:48,060 --> 01:50:45,490
myth-making qualities but not not as

2723
01:50:50,400 --> 01:50:48,070
evidence for that you know I would just

2724
01:50:53,220 --> 01:50:50,410
I guess if I personally wanted to see

2725
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:53,230
something it would be area 51 okay want

2726
01:50:57,200 --> 01:50:54,850
to see what the cool new technologies

2727
01:50:59,310 --> 01:50:57,210
are now I got it I gotta go I'm afraid

2728
01:51:00,750 --> 01:50:59,320
thanks so much Michael it's been a real

2729
01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:00,760
pleasure you're welcome

2730
01:51:04,110 --> 01:51:02,650
all right thanks everyone and thank you

2731
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:04,120
key for helping out with a live show

2732
01:51:10,080 --> 01:51:07,810
Peggy for the Facebook page we have dr.

2733
01:51:12,660 --> 01:51:10,090
Kevin Randle coming up next week thank

2734
01:51:14,130 --> 01:51:12,670
you all for listening and we'll be back

2735
01:51:16,530 --> 01:51:14,140
you can listen live next week right here

2736
01:51:18,300 --> 01:51:16,540
on the Dark Matter digital network